New ORV Plan Ideas

[Boyd]

Hence, one of the reasons why I'm going to visit one of the offices to obtain the "up to date" map and regulations.

I think the point is... there isn't any "up to date map". As others have posted, that was a proposal that wasn't adopted. The USGS 24k topo map was a benchmark that was suggested during those discussions.

If the road is on topo it's legitimate,of course half of those are gone and there are some new roads that are totally viable

Those 24k topos were discontinued twenty years ago but many of them haven't been revised for 50 years or more. The USGS has now disavowed them and considers them as "historical documents" instead of "maps".

As for the "regulations", they are all available here:

https://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/rules/njac7_2.pdf

 

[NJCoastal]

I think the point is... there isn't any "up to date map". As others have posted, that was a proposal that wasn't adopted. The USGS 24k topo map was a benchmark that was suggested during those discussions.



Those 24k topos were discontinued twenty years ago but many of them haven't been revised for 50 years or more. The USGS has now disavowed them and considers them as "historical documents" instead of "maps".

As for the "regulations", they are all available here:

https://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/rules/njac7_2.pdf

Thank you. The posts have been a good education so far. The only confusion is about a friend who went to the Atsion Office last September. He was handed a paper map of Wharton State Forest and was instructed by the staff to stay on the yellow roads, stating he would be fined if caught not complying. I don't understand why the staff would give him an outdated map. A true contradiction?

 

[MuckSavage]

Hmm, so they're still pushing the MAP. @NJCoastal The TNJT is set on legal roads. That was the intention of the route. It's been re-routed and revised multiple times to keep it legal & reasonably safe.

 

[Boyd]

The only confusion is about a friend who went to the Atsion Office last September.

There's an old saying, "never ask a public official a question unless you already know the answer".

 

[MuckSavage]

Maybe I'm wrong in this assumption, but if it feels wrong, it probably is. I stay off that road.

 

[enormiss]

I traveled on the Trans New Jersey Trail, from Brendan T Byrne State Forest to Batsto Rd near Batsto Village last weekend. Brendan T Byrne SF to Quaker Bridge was relatively easy in my compact SUV 4WD, but Quaker Bridge to Batsto (along Goodwater Road) was a little more interesting.

You could take any legal vehicle on it but, the TNJT (Trans NJ Trail) was inspired by/for dual sport motorcycles

 

[manumuskin]

I think the point is... there isn't any "up to date map". As others have posted, that was a proposal that wasn't adopted. The USGS 24k topo map was a benchmark that was suggested during those discussions.



Those 24k topos were discontinued twenty years ago but many of them haven't been revised for 50 years or more. The USGS has now disavowed them and considers them as "historical documents" instead of "maps".

As for the "regulations", they are all available here:

https://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/rules/njac7_2.pdf

I haven't been revised in over fifty years and I"m still viable,though barely so

 

[NJCoastal]

I deleted a couple of previous posts. The posts may well be a mute topic. Why?

Requires additional inquiry: Land Use, Climate Impacts & Sustainability Committee Meeting - March 17, 2021

 

[bobpbx]

From the document...https://www.nj.gov/pinelands/home/meetings/documents/031721LUCIS_minutes.pdf....in the Public Comments Section:

"Margo Pellegrino asked about illegal, off-road vehicle use and disrupting soils."....."Commissioner Lloyd said he is interested in knowing what off-road vehicle use does to soil retention and carbon in the Pinelands."

I'd like to know the answer too. Very odd thing to bring up in a topic like that.

 

[Boyd]

I haven't been revised in over fifty years and I"m still viable,though barely so

I love the old 24k USGS topo's, they are what got me interested in maps when I was just a kid. But they really don't reflect the current reality in many cases. For example, Bulldozed Road should be familiar to most people, it is on all my maps, it's on OpenStreetMap and even on the new USGS National Map. It shows on the aerials back to the 1980's, but it's not on the old 24k topo map.

https://boydsmaps.com/#16.00/39.734361/-74.649052/pines1999/0.00/0.00

Devious-Mount Road is another well-known road on current maps like my topo's, OpenStreetMap and the USGS National Map. But it's not on the old 24k Topo's either.

https://boydsmaps.com/#16.00/39.737909/-74.632272/pines1999/0.00/0.00

These are just a couple examples, there are plenty of others.

 

[manumuskin]

I love the old 24k USGS topo's, they are what got me interested in maps when I was just a kid. But they really don't reflect the current reality in many cases. For example, Bulldozed Road should be familiar to most people, it is on all my maps, it's on OpenStreetMap and even on the new USGS National Map. It shows on the aerials back to the 1980's, but it's not on the old 24k topo map.

https://mobile.boydsmaps.com/#16.00/39.734361/-74.649052/pines1999/0.00/0.00

Devious-Mount Road is another well-known road on current maps like my topo's, OpenStreetMap and the USGS National Map. But it's not on the old 24k Topo's either.

https://mobile.boydsmaps.com/#16.00/39.737909/-74.632272/pines1999/0.00/0.00

These are just a couple examples, there are plenty of others.

Thats because as you said they haven;t been revised since the 70's.Such ashame.

 

[Boyd]

Some are even older than that!

 

[Pan]

Those big old topo maps were what i used when hiking and backpacking in the Pines in the 60s and 70s. I coated them to make them water resistant, but that also made them even harder to fold up. That and an Esso or Mobilgas road map and a compass was all i had. Chatsworth, Woodmansie, Oswego Lake, Whiting, Atsion, Jenkins, Indian Mills, familiar names to me.

 

[manumuskin]

I did two years work for the Earth Science Corps volunteer updating the Dividing Creek Topo. I walked every street in Laurel Lake deleteing houses and trailers gone and adding new ones.It took two years to finish the updating.Then they wrote me a letter back Good Job! and said they were going to urbanize laurel Lake and turn it pink.This highly PO'ed me.I do not live in an urban jungle like Millville or Vineland.I live in a really big campground that just happens to have a few crack heads living in abandoned trailers and turkeys running the streets.Someone even hits a deer walking through the campground once in awhile.We are not urban.Then they ended up never updating the thing anyway unless you call those new Topo/Aerial hybrids maps.Quite the ugliest thing I"ve ever seen. Yes their very outdated (the old topos) but I still love em.I remember when I first found them at age 14 in the Millville Library NJ Room.They would not let you take out reference material so I copied them on the machine for a dime a copy which left them black and white and hit the woods with them,even then I soon realized the roads were out of date,some already gone (many more since then) and many new ones.I sometimes walk foot trails with my grandson and when I tell him I used to drive them he is amazed.he walked up to a tree that he thought was quite old in the road about the size of my leg and said how old is this tree.I told him older then you but younger then me It was probably about 30 because thats how long that road has been shut down by the nature conservancy.

 

[Boyd]

Then they ended up never updating the thing anyway unless you call those new Topo/Aerial hybrids maps.Quite the ugliest thing I"ve ever seen.

Topo+aerials is a just one of the options, they also have a plain topo map. These were really horrible when they introduced them, there were very few features at all. But they've improved a lot recently here in the Pines, they now have green forest shading (NJDEP landcover data?) and buildings (Microsoft?). The biggest problem now is mostly cosmetic IMO, they seem to have bought into the same faded low-contrast style that Google favors.

https://boydsmaps.com/#15.00/39.332437/-75.019714/usgsTopo/0.00/0.00

https://boydsmaps.com/#15.00/39.332437/-75.019714/pines1999/0.00/0.00

And look at the buildings, they are almost invisible! The major highways look thinner than little neighborhood streets too. But the data seems to be there and this is just a simple issue of how it's being presented. The good news is that they are obviously still working on the topo's and improving them, hopefully they will look better in the future.

BTW - no pink shading, but the green area has gotten a lot smaller!

 

[manumuskin]

I have seen these maps and did not realize they were intended to replace the old topos. Not as ugly as the hybrids but something you can't see has a hard time being ugly. "Google your the reason are maps are ugly, little Google:" Wasn't that a song?

 

[NJCoastal]

Like minded? Yep, I realize it's a long shot but at least others are thinking along the same lines. I'm retiring on May 27, so I'll have a lot of unscheduled time available. Maybe I'll visit the office of our NJ Congressman Andy Kim to request a paper trail of where the federal RTP dollars were spent (FOIA).

"The money comes from the Recreational Trails Program (RTP), which is funded by a federal fuel tax. According to the Federal Highway Administration’s website, the RTP “provides funds to the states to develop and maintain recreational trails and trail-related facilities for both nonmotorized and motorized recreational trail uses.”

“The signage is very weak, and the maps are terrible,” Peters said. “There are federal dollars coming into New Jersey for this and the DEP hasn’t been spending it. That’s what gets me crazy.”

source: Pine Barrens abuse by off-road vehicles: How better maps and signs can help.

 

[enormiss]

Wasn't it discussed the 1st time they tried the MAP that they couldn't use federal fuel tax for maintenance and prohibit legal vehicle access?

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

Wasn't it discussed the 1st time they tried the MAP that they couldn't use federal fuel tax for maintenance and prohibit legal vehicle access?

I do believe that is a yes

 

[Teegate]

The problem with signs is they will be like the plastic posts blocking all the roads. We will constantly see new signs showing up until all the roads are closed. Give them an inch and they take a mile.