ORV Management In Sensitive Areas Of Wharton

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,546
1,073
Atco, NJ
I agree. I only looked this up after hearing about them last night. I guarantee the PPA and DEP were doing the same. The time line on the MAP project is key. Last night both the DEP and PPA seemed to back off a bit and say that this is only "proposed" and that only 10 roads are affected. I took that as their new stance. There are probably 10 roads with right of way that are closing. The rest were never roads in their mind. I also think the only way we can win is by getting together and getting on the same page. Using a calculated series of questions to put them on the spot is probably our best bet. Last night seemed the only preparation that was done was the map that Dave was handing out before the meeting. It's a good start and gets everyone there evolved but more organization is needed I believe. I garantee that's what's going on now in the DEP and PPA. The I just got back from vacation excuse was already used. It won't be used the next time. They will have an excuse for closing every road on that map that we gave them. They might even concede some and leave some open FOR NOW to make everyone feel like they accomplished something.
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,618
1,873
Monmouth County
www.benruset.com
There was insinuation that that could happen, or that roads would be repaired and reopened (if they decided to repair them.) Or that roads could spontaneously re-open if the DEP allows it.

I call bullshit because once they have everyone swallowing the bitter pill of closures they have ZERO incentive to re-open. As Rob mentioned in my meeting with me, there are people that want him to close off ALL of Wharton.
 

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,546
1,073
Atco, NJ
Again I agree. The notion that roads will reopen if they can be repaired is nothing more then bullshit. Reopening a road is like saying my taxes are going to go down next year. Right now they are doing nothing more then polling. If they can decrease the number of people protesting by enough by temporarily bending don't think they won't. And in a few years when they try to close more they will have less opposition. Instead of closing everything they want overnight they will settle for closing the same over 5 years.
 

tsqurd

Explorer
Jul 29, 2015
180
137
South Jersey
As Rob mentioned in my meeting with me, there are people that want him to close off ALL of Wharton.

So kind of him to have our backs on this! With friends like this...

Going to be tough to keep them honest with their spin, which one can already see in their communications. If they do indeed re-open a road, I would wager 5 more would get closed at the same time, but the press release will read "DEP reopens forest road"

Reminds me of Clinton's "I have never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky." Will have to request a definition list to make sure we are all working off the same definition of 'road', 'closed', 'forest', etc. The hard part will be getting them to address, in the appropriate setting, the difference in their working definition vs the implied meaning the average person would take away from their statement.
 

Gibby

Piney
Apr 4, 2011
1,640
442
Trenton
Has anyone offered to do trail maintenance?

When I was a hard core mountain biker, the reason we were able to ride in Wissahickon was because the riders all came together, including the local bike store owners, and maintained all of the trails in the area. It was hard work but it was accomplished. I don't recall hearing anyone or any group mentioning if there was any way for road maintenance to be done by anyone other than the FFS.
 

enormiss

Explorer
Aug 18, 2015
591
384
Atco NJ
...I also think the only way we can win is by getting together and getting on the same page. Using a calculated series of questions to put them on the spot is probably our best bet. Last night seemed the only preparation that was done was the map that Dave was handing out before the meeting. It's a good start and gets everyone there evolved but more organization is needed I believe. I garantee that's what's going on now in the DEP and PPA.

Previous page had concerns Cindy is just digging and I dont disagree with the statement above.
But I just typed a long email with a mushy personal introduction then a series of questions I need to send to someone.
I can delete the mushy part and email if someone wants to catalog questions, or print get together and see who is most competent to organize Q's
I have nothing groundbreaking, so if no harm I could just send off to Cindy for a response too...
 

46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
8,837
2,143
Coastal NJ
The state will probably just string everyone along at meetings such as these, until the 'plan' is fully implemented. Possibly one way to stop/slow them, is a court issued restraining order until they can prove, via studies, the vehicles in question are causing the damage, and that all other avenues to resolve it have been exhausted. Perhaps the studies already exist, but I for one have not seen, nr heard of any such studies, just photo's taken by 'who knows who' and a whole lot of internet hyperbole. Hardly anything 'scientific' to justify it. This is the DEP after all, the queen mother of requiring all things be studied first.
 
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1Jerseydevil

Explorer
Feb 14, 2009
567
214
. Possibly one way to stop/slow them, is a court issued restraining order until they can prove, via studies, the vehicles in question are causing the damage, and that all other avenues to resolve it have been exhausted. This is the DEP after all, the queen mother of requiring all things be studied first.
I mentioned a lawsuit in my previous comment. Perhaps the funds being raised will be used to initiate a lawsuit?
Keep in mind the DEP war chest has deep pockets using "our" money, but even a temporary restraining order will put the brakes on this while both side better organize. The fact Rob, PPA and DEP have been working on this for, only they know [years?] have a head start where all this was just recently "dumped" on the public with Guy's accidental encounter with Rob and the volunteers on Carranza rd.
 

Tracker Jim

Scout
Dec 18, 2014
98
83
Leeds Point NJ
It appears that supporters of the M.A.P. are concerned about how things are progressing and are trying to rally supporters to attend the upcoming town council meetings.
The following is a post that came across my Facebook feed.
MAP.jpg
 

Outdoorgirl

New Member
Aug 2, 2015
27
12
55
Mullica
Today while out at Wharton we ran across a logger that was there to look at Washingtons turnpike, he is going to put in a bid to cut the timber, he also stated that while this was happening Washingtons turnpike would be closed. , but it would open back up once the road was widened
He also said that they would be logging and bringing in processors .
 

SuperChooch

Explorer
Aug 26, 2011
391
428
47
Hey all, who do we have from tabernacle? I don't know if it is on the agenda yet, but I'm going to be on business travel on the 24th, when the next meeting is. Please PM me.
 

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,546
1,073
Atco, NJ
The only way that we can win. Is winning the public opinion. The only way I see that is possible is exposing the holes in the project MAP. There is not one single person that can do that all. We need to organize better. Posting everything here in the forum where everyone can see could hurt our chances. We need everyone's input and can use everybody's attributes to sway any public opinion. We need to get together outside of this forum to accomplish this. The sooner the better.
 
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Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
25,751
8,384
It appears that supporters of the M.A.P. are concerned about how things are progressing and are trying to rally supporters to attend the upcoming town council meetings.
The following is a post that came across my Facebook feed.
View attachment 6060


I find it insulting that Al Horner thinks everyone there is from an "off-road vehicle crowd." That is not true at all.
 

Tracker Jim

Scout
Dec 18, 2014
98
83
Leeds Point NJ
I find it insulting that Al Horner thinks everyone there is from an "off-road vehicle crowd." That is not true at all.
I am bothered it also. I think we can do a better job advertising the fact that many other interest groups oppose this plan - many of whom resemble the supporters.
 

Cherokee261

Scout
Aug 6, 2015
65
69
Medford Lakes
A response to Mr. Horner, as I am sure he is lurking somewhere close and checks this thread often: How DARE you suggest that I am "misinformed" on this issue - and further, if that were the case, you would have only yourself and Rob Auermuller to blame, since you appear to be two of the primary offenders who felt justified in stripping the public of access to the forest that has always been available, without bothering to include or inform them - out of fear I suspect...fear that your plan would have been seen from the start for what it is, and as such would never have progressed beyond an idea of yours or one of your cohorts.
 

tsqurd

Explorer
Jul 29, 2015
180
137
South Jersey
its all messaging. Who knows what mr Horner thinks, he just needs a bad guy to sway public opinion.

The only way that we can win. Is winning the public opinion. The only way I see that is possible is exposing the holes in the project MAP. There is not one single person that can do that all. We need to organize better. Posting everything here in the forum where everyone can see could hurt our chances. We need everyone's input and can use everybody's attributes to sway any public opinion. We need to get together outside of this forum to accomplish this.

I agree with what you are saying, but it will be challenging to accomplish given the grass roots nature of this "movement". I've got some ideas, as I'm sure most others do - it's that next step of what to with them that I haven't figured out yet.
 
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smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,546
1,073
Atco, NJ
its all messaging. Who knows what mr Horner thinks, he just needs a bad guy to sway public opinion.



I agree with what you are saying, but it will be challenging to accomplish given the grass roots nature of this "movement". I've got some ideas, as I'm sure most others do - it's that next step of what to with them that I haven't figured out yet.
Yes it's grass roots but without organization we are nothing more then a relatively small group of voters. Organization turns a bunch of voices into a force.
 
Been wondering why most people use cryptic names for this forum. To the point few of you recognized each other at a various meetings. Mine is AlbertD but I have tried to change it to AlbertDHorner, a name I am proud of, not fearful of using, but can't seem to get the system to change it.
 
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