Pair of Timber Rattlers

[Bobbleton]

Go back and read what I said. First off I've never said that handling snakes is bad because mild handling is fine in my opinion. Secondly, I never mentioned radio tracking and third I never said anyone radio tracks and then pickles them. LOL What I said is that handling is handling and the effects are the same for whatever reason. The hypocracy would be saying it's bad but then ok as long as it's for research. Many snakes have been accidently killed as a result of implanted transmitters in N.J. snakes.

I read what you said. I guess I took it out of context in assuming it was in some way to related to the discussion.

I don't really think its hypocritical to say that its bad, but okay for research (given that the research has some bigger goal). The motives behind the two are amusement vs. conservation . . . I don't see any reason why if one is justified the other must be as well. I don't doubt for a second that many NJ snakes have died as a result of that surgery, but considering that it happened as a result of an effort to protect EVERY OTHER member of that species in NJ . . . I'm still pretty okay with it (depending on the specifics of the situation obviously).

But hey . . . at the end of the day each of us has the best intentions at heart for the native NJ wildlife, regardless of how we each categorize every particular issue according to our own values and experiences. I personally find the reasoning behind other peoples' opinions about these sorts of things very interesting.

 

[swwit]

But hey . . . at the end of the day each of us has the best intentions at heart for the native NJ wildlife, regardless of how we each categorize every particular issue according to our own values and experiences. I personally find the reasoning behind other peoples' opinions about these sorts of things very interesting.

I completely agree. Thanks.

 

[manumuskin]

I used to belong to the NJ herp atlas so when i was catching snakes then it wasn't amusemnt but science since I was reporting what I found and had to make a positive Identification.I will have to sign back up to herp atlas today so i can quit being a rebel and become a legitimite member of the scientific community so that i can handle snakes without the sever sense of guilt caused by the sure knowledge I've been stressing them possibly into abnormal predatory situations.Once I'm registered and am on the books all that will be moot in the name of science and good record keeping.All my headaches are over.This is a brainstorm.I don't have to go cold turkey on snakes and I can get my self respect back.I just threw the motrin in the trash,all is well
Thanks for the patience you've shown with this rebel.Now all will be happy
Al

 

[Piney Boy]

Lucky you, that must have been quite an amazing scene to witness..........Im more then a little jealous.

 

[dragoncjo]

Al, your right snake are always vulnerable to predation no doubt. My point is basically what you are saying. When on home ground snakes appear to be much more at ease because they always no an escape point. When place in a area they aren't as familar with they always appear on edge a bit more. Bobbleton has been working on a project were the snakes were forced to relocate(due to development) within the first couple years most the study snakes died due to predation from hawks. The habitat was near similar(I think) but given the lack of familiarity these animals were sitting ducks for red tails.

 

[manumuskin]

Al, your right snake are always vulnerable to predation no doubt. My point is basically what you are saying. When on home ground snakes appear to be much more at ease because they always no an escape point. When place in a area they aren't as familar with they always appear on edge a bit more. Bobbleton has been working on a project were the snakes were forced to relocate(due to development) within the first couple years most the study snakes died due to predation from hawks. The habitat was near similar(I think) but given the lack of familiarity these animals were sitting ducks for red tails.

Did the snakes relocate themselves nearby or did biologists move them some distance and build them dens ?
I think you have just hit the nail on the head when it comes to the primary threat to snakes and all wildlife,namely habitat destruction.No doubt illegal collecting hurts some and even as you say just disturbing them like flipping boards can cause disturbance though not moreso or as much as say something natural like a fire which reeks havoc with box turtles.I have found many box turtles freshly cooked while walking in back of a moving fire.
On a different note Whip and I were out to the location you gave us by the rr tracks the other day and i found my third dead box turtle,just a stinky shell between the rails upside down.The gravel has been dozed out from between the rails and is heaped high on the sides.I believe the boxies are climbing the gravel and falling in between the rails and then since the ties have been scraped clean they cannot get out again and are starving or dieing of thirst.Snakes can no doubt crawl up over the rails and lizards can jump but the poor turtles are left to die in the sun.
Al

 

[dragoncjo]

Al, I find 3-4 boxies dead on those every season and I only go there like 1-2 a year. RR tracks can be brutal on turtles, my guess is at that spot they are dying from flipping back on their shells then being unable to ride themselves back up.....end result is the get cooked in this heat. Fortunately there are plenty at that location.

 

[swwit]

I've said this before so excuse me if I'm repeating myself. But one of the things that do a lot of box turtles in is lawnmowers. The guys that do the mowing be it private landscapers, county or state run machines like to get an early start because of the hot weather and by doing so they run over turtles early in the morning. I've talked to a few of them and most will avoid or move them but I'm sure some get a kick out of killing them.

 

[Pine Baron]

This has been one of the best threads in a long time. Very informative. Keep it going! I'm no herper by any means, but I would agree with the unnecessary handling of snakes of any species. I'm still on the fence about the overhandling of them in the name of science.
I love finding them in their environment, but prefer rather to observe and photograph them and not so much to handle them.
I don't know if you saw this, but it's idiots like this that put certain species on the endangered list!


Thanx for the lessons in herpetology.
John-

 

[manumuskin]

This has been one of the best threads in a long time. Very informative. Keep it going! I'm no herper by any means, but I would agree with the unnecessary handling of snakes of any species. I'm still on the fence about the overhandling of them in the name of science.
I love finding them in their environment, but prefer rather to observe and photograph them and not so much to handle them.
I don't know if you saw this, but it's idiots like this that put certain species on the endangered list!


Thanx for the lessons in herpetology.
John-

I handle snakes because I'm fascinated by them.How can something move that fast and climb trees and swim all with no arms or legs.They can fit in places you wouldn't believe even for their size.They can get stuck though.I had two ball pythons escape once and get lodged inside an old vcr and they were actually stuck.I had to take the vcr apart to get them out.Never could figure out how to get it back together.In any case I just can't accept the fact is wrong for me to catch and briefly handle a snake and then release it on site without hurting it while it is ok for a scientist to catch the same snake,transport it to a foreign environment and then cut it open,insert hardware into it and then sew it up and release it back into the wild and oh yes stick steel instruments up it's butt to figure out what sex it is while it's trapped in a tube.
For anyone who has never held a snake you will never understand how neat they are.You can watch them but till one slides up your shirt sleeve or wraps around your arm because it likes the warmth you won't come close to learning much about the snake.Some think their disgusting because they squeeze the crap out of their prey and swallow them whole.Is that any more digusting then skinning it,gutting it and carving it up before you eat it.
yes biologists learn things with those chips we can't learn by just catching snakes like a live gps track of where and when they are at all times but does the end justify the means?
How many have ever had a snake take a mouse out of your hand? Now that is way cool,except for the mouse that is.Those pythons I spoke of would hear me take the lid off the cage and would come out of their hide and tilt their heads and look up at me as if to say Dinner?
On another note handling amphibians with unclean hands can harm them or even clean hands can dry them out if held too long since they breathe through their skins they will actually suffocate if their skins dry out.safer to handle with wet hands but very hard to keep a hold of too and how hard do you squeeze? a definite technique to frog catching without harming.
Al

 

[Pine Baron]

Al,

In my youth, (sometime last week) , I was the only one in my circle of friends who was not afraid to handle snakes. I've handled plenty while camping, hiking, golfing, whatever. Looking back, the way I did it, pinning them with a stick or stepping on their neck, probably wasn't a real good thing to do. Although, like you said, it was really neat.

It's just that now I prefer to leave them be. I have no problem with folks handling wildlife if it's done correctly with a proper respect for the animal. But goofballs like the ones on that link just irk me because they don't care about them. I'm sure the first thing you and the others say isn't, "Let's f*** with it!" To me, this is a total disrespect for wildlife, and if I ever caught somebody in the act doing this, I might have to f*** with them with a stick, 'cause that would be really neat!

John-

 

[manumuskin]

Al,

In my youth, (sometime last week) , I was the only one in my circle of friends who was not afraid to handle snakes. I've handled plenty while camping, hiking, golfing, whatever. Looking back, the way I did it, pinning them with a stick or stepping on their neck, probably wasn't a real good thing to do. Although, like you said, it was really neat.

It's just that now I prefer to leave them be. I have no problem with folks handling wildlife if it's done correctly with a proper respect for the animal. But goofballs like the ones on that link just irk me because they don't care about them. I'm sure the first thing you and the others say isn't, "Let's f*** with it!" To me, this is a total disrespect for wildlife, and if I ever caught somebody in the act doing this, I might have to f*** with them with a stick, 'cause that would be really neat!

John-

I've never stepped on a snake to catch one,as a matter of fact every snake I've ever caught I just grabbed except for the rattlers.they take a little more care.The only animals I will kill intentionally are the ones that are hurting me or have the immediate,likely potential to hurt me.My wife has truned me into a spider murderer but only the large ones in the hosue.They move too fast to play with em and they are quite big,look like some type of harvestman.the long leggers I release outside.I will kill wasps or bees in the house or making nests on the house or out buildings.when clearing the brush out of my woodlot beside the house i was attacked by three separate nests of yellowjackets.They won the battle but lost the war so to speak.A hasty retreat followed by a night time reconaissance followed by swift retribution.Other then that I pretty much don't kill critters except ticks and skeeters and such.Not a hunter but neither am i anti hunting,just ain't interested in killin though if anybody gets hold of some nice skins i will braintan on occasion.
Don't like the occasional attitude i run into with some hunters that they own the woods and the rest of us need to git when their there.
Al

John-[/QUOTE]

 

[jhint22]

Great find. I’ve only encountered this interaction once in the canebrake species. I regret not having my camera on me at the time.

I do want to comment on the discussion regarding animal handling in the field. I’m currently a PhD student in the wildlife sciences and my research requires me to trap and handle wildlife. I can tell you first hand that any researcher conducting wildlife research with federal and state funding is governed by federal and state regulations and guidelines. Additionally, the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee (IACUC, pronounced i-a-cook) provide species-specific protocols that researchers have to follow. When publishing our work, we are also required to explicitly explain animal use and handling protocols and whether they are accepted by specific agencies such as IACUC.

As wildlife biologists, we attempt to minimize our impacts on wildlife by using best practice procedures that have been tested and evaluated over time for two reasons. First, animal welfare is of upmost importance to us to avoid injuries and death to animals, especially for those of us studying endangered species. We got into the field for the love of wildlife. Second, poor handling of wildlife that results in abnormal behavior is not conducive for sound science. Abnormal behavior leads to bias results that will lead to unreliable knowledge. Unreliable knowledge will lead to poor management. We all know where that goes.

For those of you interested in handling reptiles and amphibians, I would suggest visiting the IACUC webpage or the web pages of professional societies, such as the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, The Herpetologist League, and the Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles, for proper handling techniques.

I apologize if I sound like I’m lecturing folks. I just wanted to clear up any misconception about wildlife biologists running amok in the woods.

 

[manumuskin]

Great find. I’ve only encountered this interaction once in the canebrake species. I regret not having my camera on me at the time.

I do want to comment on the discussion regarding animal handling in the field. I’m currently a PhD student in the wildlife sciences and my research requires me to trap and handle wildlife. I can tell you first hand that any researcher conducting wildlife research with federal and state funding is governed by federal and state regulations and guidelines. Additionally, the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee (IACUC, pronounced i-a-cook) provide species-specific protocols that researchers have to follow. When publishing our work, we are also required to explicitly explain animal use and handling protocols and whether they are accepted by specific agencies such as IACUC.

As wildlife biologists, we attempt to minimize our impacts on wildlife by using best practice procedures that have been tested and evaluated over time for two reasons. First, animal welfare is of upmost importance to us to avoid injuries and death to animals, especially for those of us studying endangered species. We got into the field for the love of wildlife. Second, poor handling of wildlife that results in abnormal behavior is not conducive for sound science. Abnormal behavior leads to bias results that will lead to unreliable knowledge. Unreliable knowledge will lead to poor management. We all know where that goes.

For those of you interested in handling reptiles and amphibians, I would suggest visiting the IACUC webpage or the web pages of professional societies, such as the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, The Herpetologist League, and the Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles, for proper handling techniques.

I apologize if I sound like I’m lecturing folks. I just wanted to clear up any misconception about wildlife biologists running amok in the woods.

I will check these pages out to see if I've been handling properly.It will severly distress me if I find that I have filled the woods with retarded,shell shocked snakes.Uncle Sam handled me quite roughly in Desert Storm so i know what it's like to have shell shock and unfortunatley to be retarded too,look at some of whips pics for reference
Al

 

[LARGO]

I will check these pages out to see if I've been handling properly.It will severly distress me if I find that I have filled the woods with retarded,shell shocked snakes.Al

Right to the point, and to all the critics, in Al speak.
You rock dude.

g

 

[jhint22]

I’ve been lurking on this site for a few days and, from what I’ve read, I think you guys are responsible naturalists. If I was still living in NJ, I would love to tromp around with you guys. With that said, I wasn’t chastising anyone for handling snakes. I was responding to the statements portraying wildlife biologists as irresponsible in their handling of animals and how it is hypocritical of us to criticize non-professionals for their handling of animals. As I mentioned before, there are a lot of regulations, guidelines, and protocols that we have to follow under the oversight of specific agencies.

And unsuccessful predatory attacks (non-consumptive interactions) do cause behavioral changes in individuals. We refer to them as trait-mediated effects. They can be as severe on populations as mortality caused by predators consuming individuals.

 

[Teegate]

As I mentioned before, there are a lot of regulations, guidelines, and protocols that we have to follow under the oversight of specific agencies.

So be honest, do you think many of those regulations and guidelines go way too far?

I can tell you that I have never viewed any member of this site handling snakes in a way that seemed to me to be wrong. We do have a core group of good people here.

Guy

 

[manumuskin]

So be honest, do you think many of those regulations and guidelines go way too far?

I can tell you that I have never viewed any member of this site handling snakes in a way that seemed to me to be wrong. We do have a core group of good people here.

Guy

Thanks Guy,
I have caught a few snakes while with you and iot's nice to see you have my back so people don't think I'm abusing snakes.I've never hurt one intentionally though as a small boy I can remember three circumstances where I was inadvertently responsible for the deaths of snakes but it was out of ignorance and lack of attnetion and never did i abuse one intentionally.That was as a young kid of 10 and younger.I have more sense now and prefer to abuse my best friend Whipoorbill instead.
Al

 

[manumuskin]

I’ve been lurking on this site for a few days and, from what I’ve read, I think you guys are responsible naturalists. If I was still living in NJ, I would love to tromp around with you guys. With that said, I wasn’t chastising anyone for handling snakes. I was responding to the statements portraying wildlife biologists as irresponsible in their handling of animals and how it is hypocritical of us to criticize non-professionals for their handling of animals. As I mentioned before, there are a lot of regulations, guidelines, and protocols that we have to follow under the oversight of specific agencies.

And unsuccessful predatory attacks (non-consumptive interactions) do cause behavioral changes in individuals. We refer to them as trait-mediated effects. They can be as severe on populations as mortality caused by predators consuming individuals.

So what your saying is that snakes are smarter then often given credit for and can learn from bad experiences.I think personally that some species are smarter then others.garter snakes and pine snakeslearn very quickly that I am unfased if they bite me and usually only do so once and then calm right down.On the other hand black racers and water snakes are very dense and will bite repeatedly.Perhpas I am as dense as they are by not being phased by this.many snakes will not bite at all if approached slowly and not grasped too near the head.I have never attempted the biting experiment on rattlers and have no desire too other then that I have found three out of four very non aggressive excepting the one i ran over before capturing.I did not hit him but it still must have been tramatic and he was quite nasty about it.
Al

 

[jhint22]

So be honest, do you think many of those regulations and guidelines go way too far?

I can tell you that I have never viewed any member of this site handling snakes in a way that seemed to me to be wrong. We do have a core group of good people here.

Guy

I wasn’t questioning whether or not you guys were mishandling animals. I've been around a lot of folks who go into the field a lot and handle herps. It doesn't bother me at all. I was simply addressing a few comments about researchers and wanted to point out a few herp societies. Perhaps the whole, “I’m a PhD student… yada, yada, yada” came off a bit pompous. I apologize if I came off that way.

I personally don’t think the protocols that we have in place go too far. As long as we aren’t negligent in our handling, we’re no different than a wildlife rehabilitator and can go by case-by-case. In fact, with the animals I work with, we have qualified veterinarians perform the more invasive and riskier techniques. We’re also a small community, so any inappropriate or unethical practices are quickly noticed and can ruin a person’s reputation. To be honest, I'm glad they're there... keeps honest researchers honest.