Substantial ruins along Mt. Misery Road

[RednekF350]

Hey here's my geocaching profile while you're at it.

http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=8c29aa39-201b-4bda-8e6f-b8abf27c29d4

Feel free to mock away.

Mock mock.
Mock.

 

[Mr.Coz]

Ok I waited several days before posting on this subject as I believe my original words would not have been posted anyway. First let me say that I will be moving this cache in the very near futher. I don't want any of you to think I am doing this because of any of you. I am moving the caches because I had concerns about it's placement when I placed it. I can not believe that a website such as this, that has such quality content, can have such a poor group of members.

Do any of you remember reading and agreeing to this:

POSTING GUIDELINES:
1. Please always remember to act civil. There are many people on this site with varying interests. While we all may not agree, we are all here to discuss our love of the Pine Barrens. Flame wars, trolling, etc. is not tolerated.

2. Actions and decisions of the admin staff and/or moderators are final. Please respect our judgement.

3. Please do not post just for the sake of posting. Try to add something useful to the discussion.

I may be wrong but it seems that you are a very narrow minded and arrogant group. I don't understand how any of you consider this to be civil or tolerant toward my families "varying interest".

Bruset states, "I was tempted to email the owner of the cache and ask them to move it, but I doubt it would lead to anything productive.". Wow what a mentality for a fourm admin.

RedneckF350 is atleast 49 and has Homer Simpson with a gun as his avatar, he is sure to be "civil" and objective. He obviously maintains a Geocaching.com account seeing as how he read our profile. This means one of two things. He has it out for all geocachers and keeps an account so he can view their profiles and pass judgement on people he has never met. Or he is a closet geocacher and needs to come out.

Did any of you even bother to read the cache page? As Stu puts it," From what I remember it wasn't even well hidden.". If any of you took two seconds to come down off your high horses ( are horses allowed or are they evil also?) you might realize what my intention was with this hide. This hide was made obvious and easy as not to promote routing around. I also state on the cache page,"There is no need to overturn anything or move things around to find the cache.".

Well I will be surprized if this post makes it to the public. Unless someone can explain to me why I shouldn't I be will posting a link to this thread on every board my family and I belong to. I will make sure that I link this thread to all of the major geocaching websites. I feel the geo websites are necessary due to Stu's statement about, "I don't want another Hampton repeat just as much as any of you, so I will see if something can be done. We don't need more rotted jawbones popping up, do we?". I think all cachers need to know that someone on this website may have done something like this. I find it hard to believe someone could be that narrow minded to do something like that. Imagine your child excited to have found the cache only to open it and find rotting animal parts. I really hope this is not the way the members of this website conduct themselves.

Well I hope I have only gotten a bad first impression of your membership. I also hope that in the futher that we cachers can do something to change your impression of us as a group.

PS I really do love the "piss" out of geocaching and I do it in my 2006 not 2007 Rubicon. Bruset dont you own a Jeep ??

 

[MarkBNJ]

This hide was made obvious and easy as not to promote routing around. I also state on the cache page,"There is no need to overturn anything or move things around to find the cache.".

The best way to avoid promoting "routing around", as you put it, would be to not locate the geocache in the middle of ruins to begin with. The fact that you did hide it there, and that you apparently felt the ruins made a good prop for your hobby, fully justifies bruset's low expectations.

 

[Mr.Coz]

11-05-07, 12:38 PM #9
RednekF350
Piney
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pestletown, N.J.
Posts: 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruset
Interesting that I was killing myself bushwacking when you can pretty much just walk there.

Oh Geocaching.com, what fun won't you ruin for me?

Geocaching in the pines presents a real dichotomy for me.
My wife loves it and I enjoy it too, in fact we are out there almost every Sunday afternoon in the winter.
However, I do feel that it brings a lot of people into remote and pristine areas of the woods who wouldn't normally be have found their way there.
That could easily spoil an outing by someone who also wants to explore a remote area and be alone and didn't expect to run into cache seekers.
We have only set out 3 in the last 3 years mainly becuase I didn't want to be part of the problem. There are plenty set by others to go out and look for and more pop up every week.
I will say I have never come across trash or damage left behind by a geocacher.
It seems that most caches are within an easy (lazy) walk of any major woods road and around the major pines attractions. Hampton Furnace, for example, has so many it is obscene.
So, we will continue to enjoy it and hopefully we won't piss anyone off in the process.
Scott
__________________
If I had known I would live this long, I would have taken better care of myself.
Eubie Blake



and your judging me.... they say there is nothing worst then a reformed anything.... can't wait to dig a little deeper... seems most of you have a few geoskeletons in your closets

 

[Mr.Coz]

The best way to avoid promoting "routing around", as you put it, would be to not locate the geocache in the middle of ruins to begin with. The fact that you did hide it there, and that you apparently felt the ruins made a good prop for your hobby, fully justifies bruset's low expectations.

I admit I do on occasion make mistakes and I try to learn from them which is why I am willing to move the cache outside the ruins. I hope someday to be as perfect as all of you are. If and when I manage to achieve perfection and can gain your approval I believe I will refrain from doing so if it means I must also judge others as you do.

No glass houses among you or are you all out of stones?

If in 100 years from now your homes are nothing but foundations and piles of vinyl siding will that make them historic or just more marks on the face of the planet left by man?

 

[bobpbx]

I admit I do on occasion make mistakes and I try to learn from them which is why I am willing to move the cache outside the ruins. I hope someday to be as perfect as all of you are. If and when I manage to achieve perfection and can gain your approval I believe I will refrain from doing so if it means I must also judge others as you do.

No glass houses among you or are you all out of stones?

If in 100 years from now your homes are nothing but foundations and piles of vinyl siding will that make them historic or just more marks on the face of the planet left by man?

Mr.Coz, don't let that bitterness eat you alive. Its alright to be upset and angry, but don't be vindictive, it just causes stress in your life.

I don't see a lot of inconsistencies in Scott's posts. He doesn't know you, and never expected you to read it, which kind of mitigates his first post. He may like Homer Simpson, but don't sell him short. He's an intelligent guy that knows a lot about a lot of things.

 

[Mr.Coz]

bobpbx
I have no intention of doing anything vindictive. Did I give you the impression that I planned to? I just feel some people need to understand that their view of something isn't the only view. Here is a man who has geocached, his wife still caches, and she has more hides out there than I do. Who is he to judge my family and myself? And then I need MarkBNJ telling me that my cache placement justifies bruset judging me and deciding that contacting me would do no good. Sorry but that is just ignorant.

Well thank you for your input. I am not the kind to just sit back and let people say anything they want and not call them on it. Hopefully this will all blow over soon. The more I examine the site the more I am enjoying it.

 

[MarkBNJ]

bobpbx
I have no intention of doing anything vindictive. Did I give you the impression that I planned to? I just feel some people need to understand that their view of something isn't the only view. Here is a man who has geocached, his wife still caches, and she has more hides out there than I do. Who is he to judge my family and myself? And then I need MarkBNJ telling me that my cache placement justifies bruset judging me and deciding that contacting me would do no good. Sorry but that is just ignorant.

Well thank you for your input. I am not the kind to just sit back and let people say anything they want and not call them on it. Hopefully this will all blow over soon. The more I examine the site the more I am enjoying it.

Well, maybe we can both admit we jumped the gun. Nobody here knows you personally, and if I find out some anonymous person has placed a cache in the midst of a fragile ruin I am not immediately looking for the sympathetic angle on their story.

I don't believe you're out there trashing the pines, but by bringing people to a ruin to look for that cache you do damage. It's as simple as that. Now that you know that it's damaging, how do you feel about it? That's what is important.

 

[long-a-coming]

You really like to come out firing don't you Mr. Coz? Now let's let the members of this board respond to your rant. I think you may learn a little something when its all said and done. I've been to Geocaching.com I've found a handful of caches its a great family activity I hear you I have a three year old who asks me to take him "find treasures" all the time. I'm glad you've decided to take the cache away from the ruins.

 

[RednekF350]

Well I guess I shouldn't drink and talk on the computer at the same time.
It makes me say silly things that I don't regret later.
Sorry Mr. Coz.
After you come up for air, sit back and enjoy the most informative, well organized resource for the NJ Pine Barrens on the web.

Well, I am off to shoot a turkey with my Homer gun.
Enjoy your Saturday.
Scott

 

[Teegate]

When one posts on a website they have to understand that not every member has the same point of view, so think about your general criticism when you call everyone a “narrow minded arrogant group.” Many of the members here have been exploring the pines for almost 40 years and have first hand viewed the destruction and damage to many of the ruins there. Those memories and images tent to narrow one’s mind on what does and doesn’t cause this damage. When you have witnessed or heard about people placing geocaches into walls of some of these ruins, you have to understand that some people will not like what you do. Does that mean they think geocaching is wrong ... No, just that the placement of them is important. It seems like you are a decent person because you freely admitted that you had concerns about the location you placed it at, so if you had those concerns, is it a crime that we here had those same thoughts? Maybe they did not articulate that properly, so please don’t hold that against them.

You also freely admit you are enjoying the site, so please continue to participate in our discussion and one day you may find we are not narrow minded, but rather concerned about what is happening to the pines that your family and us enjoy so much. Sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we get it wrong. Hang in a while and make your own decision.


Guy

 

[Teamcoz]

He doesn't know you, and never expected you to read it.

Hi, Mrs. Coz here. I wrote out a long post the morning I found this thread a couple of days ago and asked for it to be deleted before anyone could read it. I have been on your site before this, never posted, but I was doing some research for my husband when he started hiking the Batona.

My biggest problem with this whole thing is exactly what I quoted above. No, Scott doesn't know us but he made some pretty good judgements about our family, and if he never expected us to read it then he should not have posted it on a public forum. There are members of our geocaching group who belong to this board, I know of 3 of them that belong, others may also who's names I don't recognize. I am not worried about what those people think of us, they know us personally and would never jump to the conclusions that have been jumped to here.

Your group has your agenda for the Pine Barrens and our group has their agenda. A better way to get both groups to start a good dialog is to not assume the other is not cooperative. Had you contacted us we would have been more than happy to move the cache without all of this rancor.

Does anyone know what this place was, is there historic value to it? Enlighten me and teach me, I would honestly like to know. If you think it is valuable is your group working on getting it recognized and protected, is that possible? If in our geocaching adventures we come across anything else like this, we would be happy to post them up here so you guys can do what you like to do and research them.

Chris and I hold our family very dear to us and sorry but judging it the way you did raised the hairs on the back of our necks. Especially for this Momma Bear.

The cache will be moved as soon as time and weather permits.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Amy,

I guess that your husband didn't get a chance to read the messages that I sent, where I clearly apologized for what I had said. But, in the effort of full disclosure to everyone, I'm going to post them, since I feel that the attack by your husband on me and everyone else here is totally unwarranted. I'm sorry that you both feel upset and slighted, but I don't know what else I can do to to apologize to you and show you that this wasn't meant as an attack to either of you.

If your husband wants to be mad at me, he certainly has the right. Please feel free to share the link to this thread with anybody you see fit. I think any reasonable person would be able to see that this was at the worst a misunderstanding.

And, as for my own Geo-skeletons, the last time I had anything to do with Geocaching was back in 2004, when I did a handful of Tom Neigel's caches. I was also formerly a Groundspeak distributor when I had an online shop. I sold $0 worth of Groundspeak gear.

Mr. Ruset,

I joined your site this morning after hearing about some issues with our geocache "Ruined my Day".

After reading the thread regarding those ruins, it did get me a bit upset about how my family was portrayed and I responded after a night of definitely not enough sleep.

Please do not post my response. I have already spoken with my husband and we have no problem moving the cache. However it would have been nice if someone would have just contacted us and asked to do so rather than post in a public forum and presume how uncooperative we would be.

Thank you.

Amy

Hi Amy,

I just read through your response and I didn't think it was bad at all. Since you don't want it posted, no problem.

I'm sorry if you feel like your family was slighted by the thread. I certainly didn't intend to come off as judging your family.

I personally have a problem with geocaches being placed on ruins, especially those that have never had any sort of arcaheological survey done. I believe the increase in traffic to the site will have a negative impact on the site. The fact that someone had built a "fort" there shows the general diresepect that most people have for archaeological sites. I don't mean to say that you or your family don't have any respect for those places, as I am sure you do, but you never know who will come along and find your cache and decide to bring a souvenir home, etc. Of course this could happen with anybody walking through the woods and finding the ruins, but I feel like posting coordinates to those places is a great risk.

As for you thinking anybody would judge you because you own a Rubicon -- I myself own a 2008 Rubicon Unlimited. Many of us on the forum own 4WD vehicles. Granted, I don't think any of us are hard-core wheelers, but I don't think that anybody would look down upon you just because you own a Jeep.

Also, Wharton is not the only place that you're allowed to wheel. Any of the State Forests, Wildlife Management Areas, etc. are open for Jeeping.

Thanks!!

Thank you for your response. I know this morning I was quite unhappy with the way the posts read, and I am quite protective of my family, especially since we go out of our way to try and do the best for our environment, it is kinda hard to read something that makes it sound like we are not.

My husband came across those ruins one day while hiking in the area, we live close to there and more than likely the "fort" you mentioned was built by kids playing paintball or intending to play paintball in the area, that is very common back there.

The site is not marked as an arcaheological site or any historical site, we honestly did not think it was really that old because of the pour type foundation in that area. We thought it might have been some type of bomb shelter because of the canned goods you can locate in the back left hand corner of the foundation. We didn't touch those, just left them there. What can be done to mark that as an historic site and post signs to protect it from others. I am sure there are laws to protect such sites and sometimes the threat of fines is enough to keep people away.

Responsible Geocachers are very respectful of historic sites and will do their best not to disturb them, we didn't think placing the cache there would be a problem as you didn't have to move anything to find it.

I really thing the following post by Redneck was a bit much and a little uncalled for.

Ben,
He owns a 2007 Rubicon! (Say it ain't so!)
I checked out the cacher's profile and his posts on Geocaching.com. He posted a pic of his Rubicon in one of his posts.
He is deputy municipal clerk in x-ville NJ and loves the piss out of geocaching..
He enjoys ATV'ing with his family and thinks geocaching is as intriguing as fire.
I would expect a cache to be placed inside the Atsion mansion as soon as it opens.

Seriously, just contacting us with a nice "Hey, we noticed you placed a cache at xyz location, it is historic ruins and in an effort to preserve those, could you please move it from within the ruins"
Along with an explanation as to why would have gone alot further than the posts that were made would have gone alot further as far as public relations for what you are trying to promote in the Pine Barrens.

I have been to your site before and looked around while researching stuff on the Batona Trail, my husband has hiked about half of it now and will be finishing the rest. It is a great site for that type of information.

In any case my husband has already noted that he will move the cache from inside the ruins.

Hi Amy,

I have a lot of respect for all of the folks that do the cleanup at Wharton each year. A few of the folks from this site go each year, and I donated a pair of FRS radios to the raffle one year. I generally do the Forked River Mountain cleanup which is on the same day as the Wharton cleanup.

Unfortunately most ruins in the woods are not marked or protected in any way. I believe that building was either a support building for the sawmill that operated nearby, or was a packing house for the abandoned cranberry and blueberry bogs nearby. I did have an archaeologist friend out there and she suggested that the building dated from the mid to late 1800s. The poured concrete foundation would put it earlier than you would expect -- most modern ruins (post 1920's) have cinder block construction.

Unfortunately no amount of fines or laws will keep people from ruining historic sites. If you get enough of the "wrong element" back there, significant damage will be done.

A few years ago several members found an abandoned campground on the Nescochague River. The place had been abandoned in the late 1980s, and was in pristine shape. We mentioned it on the site, and posted a few pictures and not long after that, the place was filled with graphitti, an old rotary pay phone that was still on the building was stolen, etc. Eventually the state came in and bulldozed the place because of the damage that people had done. We never posted GPS coordinates to it, but the fact that so much damage happened after it had been mentioned here convinced me that any undue attention to these sites carries a big risk. The fact that such a pristine site was destroyed because the "wrong element" found it on my site weighs very heavy on my conscious.

I can't apologize for Scott (RedneckF350) but I'm sorry that I did not talk to you myself before I posted what I did. I've had poor results with talking to other geocachers who put caches on ruins, and had mistakenly assumed it would have been more of the same.

Now that you're a member, you should consider sticking around. We're actually a great community of people and there's a lot of good Pine Barrens history discussed here.

Thanks!
-ben

 

[Ben Ruset]

That exchange happened Monday, and I hadn't heard back from Ann at all during the week. So Mr. Coz's response is totally out of the blue.

 

[Mr.Coz]

TeeGate thank you for your reply. I believe that maybe we all got off on the wrong foot. When I made the "narrow minded and arrogant" remark I was not reffering to the membership as a whole. As far as placing geocaches in stone walls I am not a fan of that myself. As many of you know before a cache is listed it must go thru a review process. Geocaching.com has rules as to where a cache can and can't be placed. When I sent in this cache to be reviewed I sent several pictures showing my intended hiding spot. I would not have been surprised if the reviewer had denied my current cache location as per the rules but it was approved. As I said I am more than willing at this time to relocate the cache outside the ruins themselves. I may be wrong but I don't believe this will satisfy anyone who has posted in this thread. It seems that putting a cache anywhere in this area, or any area that contains anything considered to be ruins or historic, is unacceptable by many on this site. I myself don't believe history that is kept hidden dose anyone any good. I have read the story of what happened with the campground and I am sorry to hear what happened. I would like to point out that what was posted on this site may not have had anything to do with the destruction of the location. If a responsible person happened apon the campgroung anybody could have happened apon it. Let's face it there is good and bad in everything. As a cacher I believe there is "geocaching" and "geotrashing". I don't think a cache should be placed every 550 feet just because the rules allow it. I also feel there should be a limit as to how many caches a cacher can place. There has to be a point where a cacher can no longer responsibly maintain all of their caches. I have already seen cases where a cache has been abandoned by the owner who may have moved on to a new hobby. These containers now go from being a cache to being trash. All cachers should be responsible for removing their caches when they no longer maintain them.

Well, while I am hanging myself out for comment I might as well go all the way. Not only am I a cacher but I am the vice president of the New Jersey Jeep Association. Yes we are a group that wheels in the pines along with other locations. I have already read much of the views that many on the site have on this hobby too.

What I would like to suggest is we try to come to some understanding on these subjects. I would be more than will to listen to any constructive criticism on these subjects. I am also more than willing to take that input, if civil and openminded, back to the groups that I belong to and present it to them. Lets face it, there is only a finite amount of pines for us all to share. We should all try to respect the others use of it and respect the pines themselves. None of us wants to see the pines what they were at the end of the Lebbanon Glass works. None of us wants to see the pines closed. The people who would have the pines approved for development have their voice out there and the rest of us would all have a much bigger voice if we work together.

 

[Mr.Coz]

I just want to appologize to Stu for the major hi-jacking of his thread. I myself hope that this leads to the information that he and I were originally seeking;

What was this place and what is it's history if there is any.

 

[pinelandpaddler]

Well, I must hand it to the arrogant, narrow-minded, and judgmental members of this website. The responses to Mr. and Mrs. Coz have been most cordial.

 

[Teamcoz]

I was tempted to email the owner of the cache and ask them to move it, but I doubt it would lead to anything productive.

QUOTE]

Ben,
He owns a 2007 Rubicon! (Say it ain't so!)
I checked out the cacher's profile and his posts on Geocaching.com. He posted a pic of his Rubicon in one of his posts.
He is deputy municipal clerk in x-ville NJ and loves the piss out of geocaching..
He enjoys ATV'ing with his family and thinks geocaching is as intriguing as fire.
I would expect a cache to be placed inside the Atsion mansion as soon as it opens.

Pineland Paddler, how do consider this not judging. Saying that contacting us would not be productive is making the judgement that we are uncooperative and commenting that we think geocaching is as intriguing as fire give me the mental image of a neandrathal drooling over the discovery of fire.

No, we are not trolls, we are a family that find the comments made about us on this board to be uncalled for.

I did try to handle this privately with Ben and was hoping he would bring back to his membership that at the minimum the cache owners, being the cooperative people that we are, contacted him and offered to move the cache, but that did not happen, instead the misjudgements of us were left for the public to view

 

[Teamcoz]

My above post will not make as much sense now that Pineland Paddler edited his post.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Saying that contacting us would not be productive is making the judgement that we are uncooperative

I'm sorry, but that has been my experience with Geocachers so far. I am sorry to have lumped you into the same group.

Well, while I am hanging myself out for comment I might as well go all the way. Not only am I a cacher but I am the vice president of the New Jersey Jeep Association. Yes we are a group that wheels in the pines along with other locations. I have already read much of the views that many on the site have on this hobby too.

I don't think anybody here has a problem with Jeepers (or any other 4WD owner) who Treads Lightly. I own a 2008 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon myself.

I would not have been surprised if the reviewer had denied my current cache location as per the rules but it was approved.

But why would you even place it there if you thought there was a chance that it wasn't appropriate?

As I said I am more than willing at this time to relocate the cache outside the ruins themselves. I may be wrong but I don't believe this will satisfy anyone who has posted in this thread.

It's a start. I'm just more concerned that with the increase of traffic to the site it's going to deteriorate much more quickly. It's somewhat hard to find on it's own, but now with GPS coordinates, it's much more accessible for anybody -- including the geotrashers -- to find.

It seems that putting a cache anywhere in this area, or any area that contains anything considered to be ruins or historic, is unacceptable by many on this site. I myself don't believe history that is kept hidden dose anyone any good. I have read the story of what happened with the campground and I am sorry to hear what happened. I would like to point out that what was posted on this site may not have had anything to do with the destruction of the location. If a responsible person happened apon the campgroung anybody could have happened apon it.

That could be true, but consider that the campground was in pristine condition from 1988 to 2004(?) and then when it's mentioned on this site, it gets a major uptick in traffic and gets heavily vandalized.

There was also one person who said he was going to destroy the grave at Union Clay Works if he found it because we wouldn't give him the GPS coordinates to it. If you go around to Apple Pie Hill or Brooksbrae look for the graphitti this kid wrote about myself and Teegate because of it.

Again, I'm sorry if you and your family feel like they were unduly attacked here. It wasn't my intent, and I assume not the intent of other people here to do so. I believe that you may be overreacting to what people have said, but none the less -- we like people who respect the woods. You clearly do have that respect. Hopefully we can all get over this, and I hope that you both consider staying active on this site.