The Economy

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Ben Ruset

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Commodities (gold, oil, aluminum, etc.) are dropping. A few days ago Alcoa announced that they were closing a smelter because it wasn't cost effective due to the dropping price (and demand) for aluminum.

Oil, as we know, is back under $100. It'll stay there for a while. The oil producing countries are going to be taking a hit due to the lower demand as well as the lower value of the money they now have.

Investing in some blue chip stocks is probably a wise move, but only if you can afford to tie the money up in the market. I'm only doing that through my 401(k).
 

Aaron

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Jul 29, 2007
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I am no financial wizard, my plan is to keep the 2 houses i have and hopefully purchase another one. I figure there will be tons of renters out there since alot of people wont qualify for mortgages anymore. Renting is the future of realestate!
 

dragoncjo

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Aug 12, 2005
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9:28...Prepare for a big rally in the stock market today....

Long-a-coming, gold is a good place to be if the economy turns to total poo. But that too is way overpriced now, the bubble could burst on gold too. The real way to play this market is to look at companies that were lumped in with the bad guys and pick the good guys out, when the market rallies. If you want to take a big risk(I do) find the financials(which may be blue chips) that got clobered as a result of other financial companies mishaps. Goldman Sachs is one off the top of my head(symbol=gs, should rally big time today). Keep a close eye on the financials exchange traded fund, symbol xlf.....should rally over the next couple years too.

Buying some beaten up blue chips is a good play too. Many of these companies are great stocks with good fundamentals. When there is panic on the street these are going to drop when people are fear selling. Basically you have stock prices that are pricing at the same price they were around 911.....that is a tremendous discount, and a good situation for people just running into money now.....not me:jeffd: The best bet is to buy indexes such as the s and p 500, and others. The worst play is to pull your money out of the stock market.....unless your retiring this year.
 

RednekF350

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Feb 20, 2004
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I wanted out at 59.5 years of age, which is 9.5 years away for me.
I am hoping my 401K can recover at least the value that it lost in the last 6 months over that 9.5 year period and then some more.
I have a balanced growth investment strategy in my program but the minute I see recovery to my 2007 level, I think I am going to go super conservative.
I somehow get the feeling I may be working until dead plus 2.
 

piker56

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Jan 13, 2006
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I wanted out at 59.5 years of age, which is 9.5 years away for me.
I am hoping my 401K can recover at least the value that it lost in the last 6 months over that 9.5 year period and then some more.
I have a balanced growth investment strategy in my program but the minute I see recovery to my 2007 level, I think I am going to go super conservative.
I somehow get the feeling I may be working until dead plus 2.

I hear you. I also wanted out at the same 59.5. My revised projected retirement date now stands at about age 89.
 

Tom

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Feb 10, 2004
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I believe we, as a nation, are about to become very poor. This false sense of prosperity, which has been possible only through deficit spending and a fiat monetary system, is coming to an end; and, well it should.

Our foreign creditors have already limited how much they are willing to lend to us. This began back in July when foreign creditors pulled over $25 billion out of the U.S. stock and bond markets. This is the point when the real credit contraction began. At that point borrowing began to get more difficult.

But the real boogey-man, lurking in the shadows, which doesn’t get discussed in the mainstream media, is the derivatives market. This is what the central planners of the world are truly concerned about, because it is slowly unraveling and has the ability to stop the world from turning. The estimated value of the derivatives market (CDO, CDS, MBS, etc.) ranges from $500 trillion to over $1,000 trillion(!). The GDP of the entire world is around $75 trillion. Warren Buffet has referred to derivatives as “weapons of mass destruction.”

Banks around the world are supposed to abide by Basel regulations. However, the bankers and corporations developed a way to spread out their risk without violating the regulations. They developed the derivatives market, which is essentially gambling on a global scale. Derivatives are essentially insurance contracts on securities the insured didn’t even necessarily own, except they weren’t called or considered insurance so they didn’t fall under SEC regulation.

AIG was the biggest seller of these derivatives and due to losses stemming from these contracts AIG lost its’ AAA rating which led to further calls on it’s contracts, which, in turn, led to the company’s bankruptcy. The whole operation was a fraud.

Once this happened, everyone else starting failing…Lehman, Merrill, etc. The end of AIG meant the end of all the investment banks, as they had no way to insure their obligations which, in turn, meant they could no longer borrow money.

The other big player in this game and the biggest trading partner with AIG was Goldman Sachs. When AIG went under, Goldman immediately lost over $20 billion. To keep their operations going, Goldman was allowed to become a commercial bank and borrow directly from the Federal Reserve.

While there are others components to this crisis, it is the credit default swap contracts written by AIG that allowed it to get so out of hand. And, without the government stepping in and bailing out AIG, every bank would have failed.

None of this ever could have been possible if the world hadn’t abandoned the gold standard for a fiat monetary system.

What can be expected, as these derivatives continue to unwind, is the printing of massive amounts of paper. And, while the market is currently deflating, the overall consequences of the actions of the Treasury Department (headed by former CEO of Goldman Sachs) and the Federal Reserve Bank will be inflationary. Those who are going to get hurt the most will be those living on fixed incomes such as Social Security; most especially since we are facing a crisis there, too. The total outstanding obligations for Social Security and Medicaid are approximately $70 trillion. No one, other than David Walker, the former Comptroller General of the Currency, is talking about this.

This has the potential of having monstrous snowball effect. As the Fed and the Treasury pump trillions of dollars into the world economy, the value of the dollar will decline and all of the foreign nations and sovereign wealth funds holding these increasingly worthless dollars will divest themselves of them. The result will be all of that paper coming back here. Hyperinflation.

As far as the bailout goes, that had more to do with expanding the powers of the Executive Branch, than it did with appropriating money. Case in point, while Congress was debating the bailout, the Federal Reserve pumped over $600 billion into the economy. It did, however, blatantly display for whom the government works – the banks and corporations.

When the people delivered as resounding “NO!” to Congress, the Representatives chose not to represent their constituencies. And, the Executive Branch resorted to actions akin to terrorism, in order to coerce the House to vote yes, as explained by Congressman Brad Sherman on the House floor:

I don’t think we are anywhere near the bottom this yet. And, the actions taken by the Fed and the Treasury Department run parallel with the actions taken during the Great Depression – price fixing. Instead of slaughtering cattle and plowing crops under to keep agriculture artificially high, they are trying to inflate the currency to keep housing artificially high. It didn’t work then and it won’t work now. What they will succeed in doing is creating a depression like we have never seen before; most especially since we no longer have any manufacturing or industry to fall back on.

I, also, don’t believe this was an accident, as too many people had been warning of this for way too long. I do believe that it turned into something far more than the central planners bargained for, however.
 

Boyd

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As a listener + reader of conspiracy stuff, I listened to a few shows in the past 12-18 months or so that were predicting the real estate burst

Well it isn't just "conspiracy stuff" from the past 12 to 18 months. Many sensible people warned that a problem was coming years ago. For example, see my post from August 2005 with the quote from Barrons here: http://forums.njpinebarrens.com/showpost.php?p=14805&postcount=15

We also discussed the looming problem in this thread here over a year ago: http://forums.njpinebarrens.com/showthread.php?t=4379

I know that Gordon Gekko said "Greed is good.", but greed - on all levels - is exactly what's led us into our current mess. And IMO, the lions share of the blame falls on somebody which the candidates will never name: the American People like you, me and our neighbors. Many of us bought into the fantasy that home prices would go up for ever and we were smug about how our houses would make us rich. Meanwhile, other people thought that they could have everything they wanted now and worry about paying later. In the end, each of us is ultimately responsible to himself/herself. If we don't excercise common sense and look out for ourselves, nobody will. The government and the banks are not our Mommies.

This is not to say that others didn't fan the flames our take advantage of gullible people. But none of this could have happen if the public didn't cooperate.
 

Tom

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Feb 10, 2004
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IAnd IMO, the lions share of the blame falls on somebody which the candidates will never name: the American People like you, me and our neighbors. Many of us bought into the fantasy that home prices would go up for ever and we were smug about how our houses would make us rich. Meanwhile, other people thought that they could have everything they wanted now and worry about paying later. In the end, each of us is ultimately responsible to himself/herself. If we don't excercise common sense and look out for ourselves, nobody will. The government and the banks are not our Mommies.

I agree, however, cheap credit and clever marketing heavily influenced the decisions made by the people. Not to mention, that we are rewarded for going into debt with tax credits for loans such as mortgages, equity lines of credit and student loans. Yet, if we attempt to save we are punished with taxes on the gains.
 

Boyd

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As for my own situation, interestingly my house and tax bill are very similar to Ben's, although I am out in the pines. As I work in the entertainment field, I'm very concerned about job security now, but I've always survived somehow so I'll just have to roll with the punches. Also somewhat concerned about my daughter since she just got a promotion at a NYC ad agency and that's a segment which typically suffers during recession. But overall, we're very fortunate and will make it through this.

I started managing my own stock portfolio over 5 years ago, and can't complain. It can be hard to track progress because the market swings so wildly from hour to hour these days. I'm down about 20% so far in 2008, which I'm very unhappy about, but the year ain't over yet. On a 5 year basis I'm still way, way ahead of the averages.

I hope this crisis will be a wakeup call for everyone. Don't blindly trust your money to ANYONE else. If you have mutual funds, 401K's, whatever... do you have any idea who is managing them or how competent they are? When I looked closely at this 5 years ago I was appalled, which is why I started doing everything myself. Yes, it takes work, just like everything important in life. I am certainly not suggesting that you start trading stocks without knowing anything about it, and not suggesting that you let paranoia overwhelm you either.

But at least START the process of educating yourself about what really makes the wheels turn. There is a wealth of information available online and in print. Forget the glossy magazines about investing... buy a copy of the Wall Street Journal from time to time.
 

Boyd

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I have negotiaitions coming up with four properties and we are aspiring high, and I am afraid of what I am asking for because the money just may not be there. Hopefully things will straighten out some by the time we get to the table, but it is not looking good...

Interesting negotiating strategy to say that in a public forum. :)
 

Boyd

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I agree, however, cheap credit and clever marketing heavily influenced the decisions made by the people. Not to mention, that we are rewarded for going into debt with tax credits for loans such as mortgages, equity lines of credit and student loans. Yet, if we attempt to save we are punished with taxes on the gains.

All true - no argument there. OTOH, there is a huge desire to blame all our problems on somebody else these days. All I'm saying is.... watch your own back. Nobody - and I mean nobody else is gonna do that for you.
 

Tom

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Feb 10, 2004
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All true - no argument there. OTOH, there is a huge desire to blame all our problems on somebody else these days. All I'm saying is.... watch your own back. Nobody - and I mean nobody else is gonna do that for you.

I agree that no one is going to watch your back...government especially.

The unfortunate thing is that many people who did the right thing and invested wisely(?) still ended up with pensions, mutual funds, 401ks and IRAs that are infected with derivatives without their knowledge.
 

Ben Ruset

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I think Tom painted what could be the worst case scenario.

The economic crisis is affecting the world now. Iceland is teetering on bankruptcy. The UK bailed out two banks today. It's not just us, so as the American dollar slips, the Euro, the Yen, etc. will drop too. Maybe not as much, but it will go down. As demand from American consumers for foreign goods drops you'll see countries like China in a world of hurt.

In the end the system needs to be rebooted.
 

gipsie

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Sep 14, 2008
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Interesting negotiating strategy to say that in a public forum. :)


They know we know it, so it is not a big deal. It is just a matter of finding a middle ground. It is no secret that times are tough and everyone is suffering. It just scares me the way things are looking economically. Not just for my members, but for my relatives and my friends.


Me, I am good. As long as I can buy gas and cruise the pines....:D
 

Teegate

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Me, I am good. As long as I can buy gas and cruise the pines....:D

Yea...so far the same here. My car goes forever on a tank of gas, and I will continue to visit the pines to keep my sanity.

Guy
 

bobpbx

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Great posts Tom. I'm glad people like you make it a habit to keep watch on the Government.
You seem to have a good grasp on the financial sector. Do you work in that field?
 
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