Your Forest Under Attack: MAP Misinformation from the DEP

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,129
573
1,093
Atco, NJ
The only person I heard that didn't want more patrols was a concerned taxpayer who didn't feel Waterford should be footing the bill for this plan. You can double check the minutes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Broke Jeep Joe

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Hey Guys, there were multiple people that said they did not want more enforcement. The one fellow I spoke with, and he was a real nice guy by the way, was definitely a 4x4 enthusiast. Now thats not to say he does anything wrong out there, even if he did have 44's on his truck, I don't want to demonize anyone. The path we blocked was a push line to the pond, it looks like it may have been a very very small path in the 1930, but since grown in. I'm not sure if you know your pin is not in the correct place?

I would like to tone this down. I became very concerned when I saw that photo go up here because of the threats that have already taken place. Thats a law enforcement matter and I will not go into detail about it. I would appreciate you updating your post with the accurate information and noting that a correction has been made.
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,333
1,123
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
Hey Guys, there were multiple people that said they did not want more enforcement. The one fellow I spoke with, and he was a real nice guy by the way, was definitely a 4x4 enthusiast. Now thats not to say he does anything wrong out there, even if he did have 44's on his truck, I don't want to demonize anyone. The path we blocked was a push line to the pond, it looks like it may have been a very very small path in the 1930, but since grown in. I'm not sure if you know your pin is not in the correct place?

I would like to tone this down. I became very concerned when I saw that photo go up here because of the threats that have already taken place. Thats a law enforcement matter and I will not go into detail about it. I would appreciate you updating your post with the accurate information and noting that a correction has been made.
Jason,

Can you move the pin to the proper location and then cut and paste the URL? I used the coordinates that were superimposed on a picture I had and it brought me to (roughly) there.
 

Broke Jeep Joe

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
521
247
43
Waterford Twp
Hey Guys, there were multiple people that said they did not want more enforcement. The one fellow I spoke with, and he was a real nice guy by the way, was definitely a 4x4 enthusiast. Now thats not to say he does anything wrong out there, even if he did have 44's on his truck.
Even if? So you base the propensity to do damage on tire size? Or you just feel the need to mention that for some reason?
 
Last edited:

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Even if? So you base the propensity to do damage on tire size? Or you just feel the need to mention that for some reason?
I don't want to accuse anyone of doing anything without evidence. That is however what is happening with the photo of the volunteer group and others and you are not saying anything to correct it.

Where is the respect for the truth? Ben didn't even know where this photo was taken and he denied the fact that it was a push line. Smoke_Jumper said the truth about this.
 
Last edited:

Broke Jeep Joe

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
521
247
43
Waterford Twp
I don't want to accuse anyone of doing anything without evidence. That is however what is happening with the photo of the volunteer group and others and you are not saying anything to correct it.
I see a truck and a driver in a parking lot, no evidence of abusing the forest, in fact the truck is not even dirty, but does have 44s on it so your evidence is providing undertones leaning toward the size and tires on the vehicle to possibly do damage. I see a photos of evidence of "volunteers" cut trees and signs blocking my access, I ask you what needs to be corrected about that?
 

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
I see a truck and a driver in a parking lot, no evidence of abusing the forest, in fact the truck is not even dirty, but does have 44s on it so your evidence is providing undertones leaning toward the size and tires on the vehicle to possibly do damage. I see a photos of evidence of "volunteers" cut trees and signs blocking my access, I ask you what needs to be corrected about that?
It was a push line cut by the Forest Fire Service during a fire. These push cuts are temporary and always meant to be closed. The pond that the push cut lead to was being destroyed by off-roaders and littered with bonfire pits and hundreds of beer cans and other types of refuse. We removed the refuse by hand, on foot, and provided volunteer labor for the forest fire service and wharton to attempt to prevent any more damage to the pond. This is what should be corrected and I'm confused what your issue is with this. Do you want all push cuts left open? Should all ponds be allowed to be driven through?
 
Last edited:

Outdoorgirl

New Member
Aug 2, 2015
27
12
3
50
Mullica
"We will work with [Wharton State Forest] to help organize friends groups involved in stewardship," said Carleton Montgomery, the PPA's executive director. "We want to focus on high-priority sites" in the park.

The volunteer friends will restrict access to those locations "by whatever method the superintendent wants, mostly by placing fallen trees across access points, or by constructing a barrier or putting up signs saying it's unlawful to drive into a certain spot," Montgomery said.
About PPA - PPA Staff & Trustees - Pinelands Preservation Alliance
www.pinelandsalliance.org, 29 Jan 2015 [cached]
 
  • Like
Reactions: popeofthepines

Broke Jeep Joe

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
521
247
43
Waterford Twp
It was a push line cut by the Forest Fire Service during a fire these are temporary and always meant to be closed even if it does take time for the organization to get on it. The pond that the push line lead to was being destroyed by off-roaders and littered with bonfire pits and hundreds of beer cans and other refuse. We removed the refuse by hand, on foot, and provided volunteer labor for the forest fire service and wharton to attempt to prevent any more damage to the pond. This is what should be corrected and I'm confused what your issue is with this. Do you want all push cuts left open? Should all ponds be allowed to be driven through?
Not talking about that Jason, I agree with that one. What I disagree with is every other closure that doesn't have damage on it, the lack of transparency to the public on the closures, the seemingly massive control the PPA has over this, the general boning the public law abiding citizens are taking, the cutting of live trees, the fact that I am talking to you about this trying to justify the lack of democracy on this issue. Don't try to turn this on me by asking me those ridiculous questions, of course I do not think anyone anywhere should drive through a pond, you must be reading from the PPA anti vehicle manual, and I will have you know I have probably carried more crap out of the pines by hand than most folks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: popeofthepines

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,274
243
1,043
Near Mt. Misery
Hold on now. Ben was only questioning whether it was a push line, he wasn't saying it wasn't absolutely. Then he requested the exact coords to make a better determination. Also, I wouldn't take Jason's bias with 44's too seriously. He did say that he was NOT making an assumption despite the fact. Lets not get too picky about how we say things. We have the potential of a productive disscussion here, I suggest we take advantage of that.
 

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Hold on now. Ben was only questioning whether it was a push line, he wasn't saying it wasn't absolutely. Then he requested the exact coords to make a better determination. Also, I wouldn't take Jason's bias with 44's too seriously. He did say that he was NOT making an assumption despite the fact. Lets not get too picky about how we say things. We have the potential of a productive disscussion here, I suggest we take advantage of that.
hey Woodjin, its good to have your voice in the conversation here. I don't blame tools[4x4s], I even think some of them are cool. Ben's denial of it being a pushcut was based on him not knowing where it was and he still won't update the post. This post by Ben is being spread on the internet and the disinformation contained just continues the paranoia and aggression towards the great people on that volunteer day. These are the people, perhaps like yourselves, that put in work to keep this place clean and who are helping to stop the abuse. Why would this forum want to demonize them?


Actually that "push line" looks like it was a farm road in the 1930s. Not created by the FFS at all.

http://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.707584586762025&lng=-74.77653573477936&z=17&type=nj1930&gpx=
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,274
243
1,043
Near Mt. Misery
Jason said: "This Map creates more enforceable routes than currently exist, and thats why the plan is going to help protect these damaged areas. The targeted closure system that we have today is just a game of wack-a-mole because there aren't enough park police to sit on the many hot spots. However if you can watch the entrance and exits to multiple hot spots, you now have a chance of catching more of the land abusers. This is a very simple idea and I want to see if it can work."


I am not so sure about this, Jason. I understand the theory but from my experience there are more entrances and exits than hot spots. Do you know what I mean? a singular hot spot typically has multiple entrances/exits rather than the other way around. it would, in fact, be more practical to to watch the hot spot itself. I believe this to be the case in the majority of areas where ORV damage has occured. Perhaps we could take a look at aerial photos of damaged areas to back this up. I will when I have more time and report back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: popeofthepines

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Jason said: "This Map creates more enforceable routes than currently exist, and thats why the plan is going to help protect these damaged areas. The targeted closure system that we have today is just a game of wack-a-mole because there aren't enough park police to sit on the many hot spots. However if you can watch the entrance and exits to multiple hot spots, you now have a chance of catching more of the land abusers. This is a very simple idea and I want to see if it can work."


I am not so sure about this, Jason. I understand the theory but from my experience there are more entrances and exits than hot spots. Do you know what I mean? a singular hot spot typically has multiple entrances/exits rather than the other way around. it would, in fact, be more practical to to watch the hot spot itself. I believe this to be the case in the majority of areas where ORV damage has occured. Perhaps we could take a look at aerial photos of damaged areas to back this up. I will when I have more time and report back.
The concept is debatable on whether or not it will work without a large increase in enforcement, but I am certainly up for giving this thing a chance. We together should lobby our government for stronger enforcement out there. Many of these locations are not going to restore to their previous condition, certainly not Jemima, but we also need to prevent more areas from becoming off-roader hotspots. Devious Mt for instance is still in good shape, but who is to say it won't be next if we don't get a handle on this?
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,333
1,123
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
Jesus Christ, Jason. Are you acting as a PPA employee here? Because if you're going to be some sort of spokesperson for them you really ought to brush up on your reading comprehension and people skills. So much for you wanting to tone things down.

Personally, if I was Carleton (whom I have met and like) I'd be horrified that you're the new public face of the PPA.

I plugged coordinates I was given of that blocked road into NJPB maps and it put me close (within feet) of where the pin was dropped. Now sometimes with the WMS imagery that the NJGIN offers there's some accuracy issues when you load it through a Google Maps overlay. Looking at the 1930s aerial imagery it shows what appears to be a farm there. Presumably the road that you blocked was an old access road to that farm?

In any event, you said that I had the wrong coordinates and I asked you to give me the correction. Instead you'd rather continue your tantrum here. With regards to the rage that you have that I have not updated my article: unlike you, I don't get paid to troll websites. I have a full time job that, while I sit in front of a computer, often requires me to do actual work. From 3-4 today I was in a meeting. When I am done here I have a two hour commute to get home. So while I am perfectly willing to make corrections, they're going to have to be done on my timetable, not yours.

Again, I posted that article yesterday. Uproar over that picture has been going on long before I did that. So keep blaming me for it, for people getting death threats, or for ruining Christmas. I won't confuse you with facts because clearly your mind is already made up.
 

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
173
54
28
Atco
FYI,
The following is a comment that was attached to the Horner post. It illustrates their desperation and the length some of the more extreme members suggest they go. View attachment 6065
So Jason is worried about death threats, but actions like this are ok? People are possibly going to have damage to their vehicles done by someone who feels this is the best tactic or worse drive on a tire that was partially compromised and possibly die in an automobile accident? Maybe someone who is not driving a 4x4. I am not saying either of these are ok, but the forest is under attack and violence towards a person or a vehicle is not going to end this.

I do have a question for any Pro MAP/PPA people, why now are you coming out of the wood work instead of lurking as you once did?
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,274
243
1,043
Near Mt. Misery
hey Woodjin, its good to have your voice in the conversation here. I don't blame tools[4x4s], I even think some of them are cool. Ben's denial of it being a pushcut was based on him not knowing where it was and he still won't update the post. This post by Ben is being spread on the internet and the disinformation contained just continues the paranoia and aggression towards the great people on that volunteer day. These are the people, perhaps like yourselves, that put in work to keep this place clean and who are helping to stop the abuse. Why would this forum want to demonize them?

We do don't want any one to get hurt, under any circumstances, or accused of anything they are not guilty of. There has been a lot of misinformation circulating about that has put some people at risk. It is important that we realize that there are people who are potentially dangerous on BOTH sides of this argument. I can assure you that Ben is only interested in factual information and will not manipulate facts to his advantage concerning this topic. I appreciate your concerns and I am confident your concerns will be addressed.
 

Boyd

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
6,981
1,234
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Why would this forum want to demonize them?
Let's be careful with generalizations about "this forum". There are 1,887 members here and only a small fraction of them have participated in the MAP discussions. I think you would find a whole range of opinions, I see it as many shades of grey and not black and white personally.