Your Forest Under Attack: MAP Misinformation from the DEP

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Let's be careful with generalizations about "this forum". There are 1,887 members here and only a small fraction of them have participated in the MAP discussions. I think you would find a whole range of opinions, I see it as many shades of grey and not black and white personally.
My apologies. I agree that it is an issue filled with grey areas. I don't want to provide the exact coordinates to the pond because it could just increase the damage the site has already seen if the coordinates spread out from this forum.

Education and enforcement here will be the true solution, and this MAP is part of the enforcement end. I am not claiming it is perfect, but it has been made with good intentions and it has been made with consultations from the Forest Fire Service, state Biologists, and stake holder groups and they will continue to have meetings and consultations as it progresses. We are neighbors and allies in valuing this place, the volunteers should not be blamed for something they did not do.
 
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46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
8,491
1,934
1,093
Coastal NJ
Let's be careful with generalizations about "this forum". There are 1,887 members here and only a small fraction of them have participated in the MAP discussions. I think you would find a whole range of opinions, I see it as many shades of grey and not black and white personally.
I think it's different shades of green myself ;)
 

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,129
573
1,093
Atco, NJ
That road started off as a plow line in 2008. I ask, at what time does a plow line become a road. The pines are filled with names like Pushline Rd, Batsto Fireline Rd, Fireline Road, Bulldozed Road and so forth. I been exploring these woods for decades and they were always roads but given the names I suppose they started as push lines. There are people that have been have been exploring the pines for say 5 years and that road was always there. Does that make it any less of a road to them? That fire burned about a decade after the one that started 1/4 mile and lessons still weren't learned. Whether you call a road or push line it doesn't matter. It should have been done years ago if it wasn't intended to be a road. It would have been grown back in by now.
 
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46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
8,491
1,934
1,093
Coastal NJ
The coordinates are already posted on Al's site;)
'On this site we will post a “Destruction Site” blog page regularly (see Destruction Sites in sidebar) showing images and/or video of the destruction occurring in one of the many areas we have exposed. You will be advised exactly where each site is with the GPS numbers and a description of the damage we found there and what types of flora and fauna are located there.' - A. Horner

"We have met the enemy and he is us." - POGO
 
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Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
That road started off as a plow line in 2008. I ask, at what time does a plow line become a road. The pines are filled with names like Pushline Rd, Batsto Fireline Rd, Fireline Road, Bulldozed Road and so forth. I been exploring these woods for decades and they were always roads but given the names I suppose they started as push lines. There are people that have been have been exploring the pines for say 5 years and that road was always there. Does that make it any less of a road to them? That fire burned about a decade after the one that started 1/4 mile and lessons still weren't learned. Whether you call a road or push line it doesn't matter. It should have been done years ago if it wasn't intended to be a road. It would have been grown back in by now.
I agree that it should have been shut down in the past. I believe that part of this plan is fixing mistakes made for budgetary or other reasons.

Some of those volunteers might not even support the Map. They have no political stake, they just wanted to protect that pond and now Ben has helped drag them into this. The comments about the volunteers I've been shown were all based on this post Ben has made without the correct information. I have had to inform all of them that this is going on.

I value the history that is shared and discovered on this forum as well as the cultural connections. I want to work with you all in support of the Pines and Wharton, but we need to tone this down for the good of everyone. "Your Forest", is not under attack. Our forest, our State Forest, is trying to create a functional management plan for all users that takes into account fair access for all as well as the safety of our first responders as well as the safe guarding of our natural heritage.
 
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dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,353
94
1,028
38
camden county
Just a few things I'll throw out here, I can't really figure out what people support sometimes on here. One day there is a thread bitching about 1/4 mile and how its a disaster and something needs to be done and the next day the same people are upset because access was closed off to a spot that was getting beat up. From the perspective of people making decisions I would think they would not know how to satisfy all the back and forth makes your head spin. I know one thing from dealing with park police, the Wharton Super and other state run agencies, they have ZERO money, none, nothing. Fish and game doesn't have money to buy trail cams to prevent illegal activity, I use to lend mine to them, they have no funds. I would love for there be a large force patrolling these places getting torn up but its not possible. Drive around Wharton, you see the same park police folks over and over, there isn't a lot of them for a large area constantly getting dopes being dopes. Take fixing roads and the upkeep, they have no money for that, so then people complain the roads are beat up, then they fix them and they complain the sand is the wrong color. Its just a lot to keep up with, so they closed a few because that was their best solution given limited funds. They are trying to implement a plan that meets all users functions, they should have consulted more before doing I suppose but again this takes money that they don't have. I was amongst a few people who got the friendship foundations block off with sticks a few years ago. We talked to Rob about what could be done, we wanted telephone poles with chains, they had no money for that. So we went with the brown blockade signs and trees, it was a decent compromise eventhough it looks like hell. It works though ,the snakes using it still do without getting run over, but the nest still get dug up because there isn't enough park police, can't solve everthing. My point is I think they are probably executing the most cost efficient plan given the resources they have, is it the best for all? no. Does it suck roads are closed yup. I have limited time and not having access and having to walk sucks, but its what happens when I few dopes ruin it for others, I've just accepted this aspect. This is unfortunately how stuff goes, a few dopes ruin something for everyone, this is the way of the pines from my days of being out there. 20 people can enjoy a pine nesting site, but one loser digs it up, boom done. 20 people enjoy driving a road a night at dusk, 1 dope decides to wreck the road and drive thru the woods, In my opinion all the folks wanting to protect just have to work together as adults, only way things get accomplished, once state gets involved everyone gets their wrist slapped and nobody is happy. Not sure what pissing matches on here will solve though, seems best for like minded folks to work together. Just my thoughts from reading through.
 
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popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
173
54
28
Atco
I agree that it should have been shut down in the past. I believe that part of this plan is fixing mistakes made for budgetary or other reasons.

Some of those volunteers might not even support the Map. They have no political stake, they just wanted to protect that pond and now Ben has helped drag them into this. The comments about the volunteers I've been shown were all based on this post Ben has made without the correct information. I have had to inform all of them that this is going on.

I value the history that is shared and discovered on this forum as well as the cultural connections. I want to work with you all in support of the Pines and Wharton, but we need to tone this down for the good of everyone. "Your Forest", is not under attack. Our forest, our State Forest, is trying to create a functional management plan for all users that takes into account fair access for all as well as the safety of our first responders as well as the safe guarding of our natural heritage.
They may not support the MAP but I cannot believe they did not know the reasoning behind doing the volunteer work?

I appreciate the value you see in the forum and cultural connections as do I. I do not believe that fair access has been considered for all; since all parties have not be included in the discussion concerning this topic.
 
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dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,353
94
1,028
38
camden county
God you guys are making these volunteers out like they are the enemies. They wanted to protect a site from ORV use, let it rest for God's sake.
 

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
They may not support the MAP but I cannot believe they did not know the reasoning behind doing the volunteer work?

I appreciate the value you see in the forum and cultural connections as do I. I do not believe that fair access has been considered for all; since all parties have not be included in the discussion concerning this topic.
All we knew at that time was there was a pond being damaged on a push cut that the Forest Fire Service put in during the fire in 08'. Rob had mentioned to me he was working on something new to manage the forest with all the ORV damage and lack of money for maintenance over time.
 
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Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,333
1,123
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
Some of those volunteers might not even support the Map. They have no political stake, they just wanted to protect that pond and now Ben has helped drag them into this. The comments about the volunteers I've been shown were all based on this post Ben has made without the correct information. I have had to inform all of them that this is going on.

I value the history that is shared and discovered on this forum as well as the cultural connections. I want to work with you all in support of the Pines and Wharton, but we need to tone this down for the good of everyone. "Your Forest", is not under attack. Our forest, our State Forest, is trying to create a functional management plan for all users that takes into account fair access for all as well as the safety of our first responders as well as the safe guarding of our natural heritage.
Again you keep taking pot shots at me without answering a single reasonable question that I've asked.

I want to see the proof that my article, made yesterday, has resulted in threats to people. If you're going to lay accusations at my feet then you'd better have some proof otherwise you're deep in libel territory. This goes beyond the MAP - now you are attacking me personally. You'd better back your statements up with fact or apologize to me for your attempts to drag my name through the mud.

"Our Forest" is under attack just as much as the Pine Barrens are "under siege." Ponder that for a while. If this plan was truly fair and reasonable then how do you explain all of the uproar over it. And uproar from more than just the "4x4 crowd", the majority of whom do not participate on this site. If this was a truly open process, how come so many people in Trenton were caught unaware? How come the grant application doesn't mention road or trail closures?
 

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Again you keep taking pot shots at me without answering a single reasonable question that I've asked.

I want to see the proof that my article, made yesterday, has resulted in threats to people. If you're going to lay accusations at my feet then you'd better have some proof otherwise you're deep in libel territory. This goes beyond the MAP - now you are attacking me personally. You'd better back your statements up with fact or apologize to me for your attempts to drag my name through the mud.

"Our Forest" is under attack just as much as the Pine Barrens are "under siege." Ponder that for a while. If this plan was truly fair and reasonable then how do you explain all of the uproar over it. And uproar from more than just the "4x4 crowd", the majority of whom do not participate on this site. If this was a truly open process, how come so many people in Trenton were caught unaware? How come the grant application doesn't mention road or trail closures?
Im fair game here Ben. If you want to keep that post and blur out the other people I have no problem with that. I did not say that it has resulted in threats. I am saying that it very well could now that this is being put out there without the correct context. This opinion is based on what has been flowing in to public supporters and I need not go into that.
 
Apr 6, 2004
3,116
176
1,043
Galloway
Good mornin', Jason.

Jemima Mount, as I pointed out, has been closed to motor vehicle traffic for years. The damage did not stop. Instead, it worsened. Some steep fines here and there would go such a long way in deterring people from destroying the hill, don't you agree?

You wrote: "Targeted closures, which is what we currently have, can not work without many more Park Police."

There may indeed be a need for more police, but this is no less true in the case of sweeping closures. In fact, a greater police presence would be needed to enforce the vast number of closed roads. I, for one, believe that much more can be done with the limited Police presence in the park. How many of those knuckleheads were cited for tearing up Jemima? I'd hazard to guess that such citations were slim to none. There's no excuse for that.
 

Jason Howell

Explorer
Nov 23, 2009
126
50
28
Good mornin', Jason.

Jemima Mount, as I pointed out, has been closed to motor vehicle traffic for years. The damage did not stop. Instead, it worsened. Some steep fines here and there would go such a long way in deterring people from destroying the hill, don't you agree?

You wrote: "Targeted closures, which is what we currently have, can not work without many more Park Police."

There may indeed be a need for more police, but this is no less true in the case of sweeping closures. In fact, a greater police presence would be needed to enforce the vast number of closed roads. I, for one, believe that much more can be done with the limited Police presence in the park. How many of those knuckleheads were cited for tearing up Jemima? I'd hazard to guess that such citations were slim to none. There's no excuse for that.
I agree with you for the most part. My understanding of the plan is that it is designed to allow the Park Police to patrol less exit and entrance points, allowing them to have better coverage around a perimeter.

In other news I was hanging out with Kevin H last night photographing the Winslow Junction. He said you perform at Howells Pub and some other places, do you have a schedule?
 
Apr 6, 2004
3,116
176
1,043
Galloway
I agree with you for the most part. My understanding of the plan is that it is designed to allow the Park Police to patrol less exit and entrance points, allowing them to have better coverage around a perimeter.

In other news I was hanging out with Kevin H last night photographing the Winslow Junction. He said you perform at Howells Pub and some other places, do you have a schedule?
I think woodjin made a good point about the advantage of patrolling the hot spots over patrolling the main roads. Besides, the police will still have to patrol many of the closed roads. I hope you see where I'm coming from in opposing the sweeping closures.

I'll let you know when I play at Howell's next. Do you have any relation to that family?