Chatsworth Atv park

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Very nicely said, Bruset!


What is also frustrating is that organizations such as the American Motorcyclist Association doesn't seem to care very much about ORV in NJ. Yes I know they are a national group, however the situation here will have echos in other parts of the country... the mindset of the off-road community seems to be the same everywhere as here.

Personally, I've been lucky and not been bothered by the park rangers when I go riding my XT225 in Wharton. I wonder how long that will last?
 

G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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.....Russ, could you imagine if the anti- gun lobby succeeded in taking your guns away? What if PETA succeeded in makin hunting illegal? .....By the way, Russ, your suggestion that I travel to other states to enjoy my passionate hobby didn't take into account the feellings of their environmentalists, oh, yeah not in my backyard......
As far as the road/ not road debate I have only 2 terrible observations.
1. Jones Rd Forked River Mountains 2007- NJ Conservation Officer heading east cuts off a Yamaha dualsport motorcyle .....
And one last thing. About the farmers, what about Sierra Club attacking those cranberry farmers at Whitesbog?
I stand by my convictions -Tom

Tom, I think the guns and animal rights debate needs to be kept separate from this. I'm not saying it's totally unrelated, but I think it distracts us from the actual issue of ORV's. Similarly, I can't speak for enviro's in other states. I have heard that there are legal places to ride in our neighboring states. Maybe that's not correct? In any case, my main point is that if you choose a form of entertainment that is not provided with convenient legal outlets, that's your choice. It sounds like you are saying that you used to get away with dong something that was illegal, and now it's harder for you to do that, or at least it's more risky, and you would like for it to be easy again. As for law enforcement people allegedly enforcing improperly, unfairly, or even illegally, I'm sure that's bound to happen at times, but that doesn't lead us to the conclusion that they should'nt enforce at all.
 

G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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3) If you don't want riders on State Land, then build the parks. You promised this. The state has facilities for other groups activities (hunters, hikers, campers, equestrians, etc.) so why should the ORV community be shut out?
5) The environmental community needs to become part of the solution instead of digging their heels in and saying "no" all the time. Even though Russ says "why is it my problem?", when you're giving people places to ride that are safe and shift them from sensitive areas to designated spots that the impact they will make is minimal, it accomplishes the goal of environmental protection.

Until riders grow up, and until environmental groups climb down off their pedistals, this problem ain't going to be solved. We can have 100 pages of posts in this thread, with Whitingrider and Russ going back and forth at each other and it won't solve anything. What we need is maturity (from both sides), compromise (from both sides), and action.

Ben, I appreciate that you have put a lot of thought into this, and are trying to take both sides into account.

I will point out again, that the state did not promise anything. A goal was stated, and the achievement of that that goal proved to be more problematic than any of us realized. What makes it problematic is the nature of the sport, not the nature of the environmental community. If you know of a piece of real estate that is appropriate for an ORV park, please share your knowledge. I take issue with the way you characterize the environmental advocacy side. Not my problem? I've been working on this since 1999, and much of that time has been spent meeting with riders.

Pedestals? Most of the time, we are beating our heads against the wall trying to stop the State agencies from allowing developers to run rampant on wildlife communities. You present us as if we have some kind of special access and influence with the DEP. Take a look at the money that stands behind the developers and builders in the state, and compare that with the money that supports the enviros, and then think about who contributed to whose political campaign. Don't forget the old saying, "Follow the money." Take a look at some of the things the evironmental communtiy has been trying to achieve, some of the broader issues, and see have many times and in how many ways the state has stone-walled, and delayed, and failed to meet goals and promises. We're not struggling to protect a form of entertainment. We're mostly struggling to protect people from pollution and wildlife communities from obliteration.

I'm not sure of what you recommend as a compromise on the enviro side. Are you saying that the enviro's should look the other way when somebody wants to build an ORV park on top of T&E species habitat? Are we digging our heels in because we continue to do what our supporters say they want us to do? Or are you saying that we should contact real estate agents and tour the state with them, searching for the right place, help arrange the deal for the riders, coordinate the deal with the state agencies, advocate for the park in opposition to the local people who don't want the extra noise and traffic? Suppose we did that, and just handed the parks to the riders on a silver platter. Suppose we did all their work for them. Would it really do anything more than alleviate some small percentage of the illegal activity out there?
 

BobNJ1979

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May 31, 2007
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i've tried to stay out of this as long as possible.. but here goes.

next time you go into the woods, look at all of the trash that you see (without much effort). now answer me this ? when was the last time you saw a guy on an enduro (or dual sport bike) drinking a beer, munching on a bag of chips, sucking down a soda, etc.. WE DON'T.. so where does all of that litter come from ? (that's for another argument that i'm not starting here).. my point is this - riders want to do just that.. ride.. how come other states have managed to put together legal trail systems and registration systems for ORV's ? look at Ocala National Forest (in FL).. they have a huge trail system down there, and everyone gets along..
 
i've tried to stay out of this as long as possible.. but here goes.

next time you go into the woods, look at all of the trash that you see (without much effort). now answer me this ? when was the last time you saw a guy on an enduro (or dual sport bike) drinking a beer, munching on a bag of chips, sucking down a soda, etc.. WE DON'T.. so where does all of that litter come from ? (that's for another argument that i'm not starting here).. my point is this - riders want to do just that.. ride.. how come other states have managed to put together legal trail systems and registration systems for ORV's ? look at Ocala National Forest (in FL).. they have a huge trail system down there, and everyone gets along..

Which goes to show that if given a legal way to ride, most riders will ride legally (and pay to register and insure their vehicles)
 

Ben Ruset

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Ben, I appreciate that you have put a lot of thought into this, and are trying to take both sides into account.

I will point out again, that the state did not promise anything. A goal was stated, and the achievement of that that goal proved to be more problematic than any of us realized. What makes it problematic is the nature of the sport, not the nature of the environmental community. If you know of a piece of real estate that is appropriate for an ORV park, please share your knowledge. I take issue with the way you characterize the environmental advocacy side. Not my problem? I've been working on this since 1999, and much of that time has been spent meeting with riders.

Russ, here's the text of the policy:

The Department's Division of Natural and Historic Resources shall work to develop appropriate recreational areas for lawful ORV users that meet the requirements of the preceding paragraph, with the goal of having two new such facilities in operation by 2005. The New Jersey Trails Council shall participate in this effort by establishing an ORV subcommittee representing a cross-section of interested environmental, recreational, ORV industry and ORV user groups. No current state park, wildlife management area or other environmentally sensitive area will be considered in this review and selection process

It says the Division of Natural and Historic Resources shall work to develop those parks. Yes, the wording of "goal" doesn't put a firm timetable on it, but the verbage is clear. The state committed to building those parks. They have to be made. It's pretty clear that this is a promise for those parks to appear. Maybe they're appear in 2008. Maybe they'll appear in 2020. Who knows.

The problem as I see it is that the environmental groups hear ORV and instantaneously their minds close. People like Fred Akers are averse to ORV's operating anywhere, even on land owned by a private club. My gut feeling tells me that if the opening of a park became a real possibility, the PPA would fight very hard against it. We all know that pretty much everywhere you look in the Pinelands, you will find a T&E species, even in areas set aside for growth.

Pedestals? Most of the time, we are beating our heads against the wall trying to stop the State agencies from allowing developers to run rampant on wildlife communities. You present us as if we have some kind of special access and influence with the DEP.

You absolutely, totally do. You're a very well connected agency that has a lot of pull with the public. You know how to generate publicity and put heat on people when it's appropriate. Sure, it's hard to go against the developers, which is why it's so easy to go after a soft target like ORV riders. They're far less funded, and it's so easy to spin public opinion away from riders. One photo of a tiretrack through a bog published in the paper is pretty damning.

Take a look at the money that stands behind the developers and builders in the state, and compare that with the money that supports the enviros, and then think about who contributed to whose political campaign. Don't forget the old saying, "Follow the money." Take a look at some of the things the evironmental communtiy has been trying to achieve, some of the broader issues, and see have many times and in how many ways the state has stone-walled, and delayed, and failed to meet goals and promises. We're not struggling to protect a form of entertainment. We're mostly struggling to protect people from pollution and wildlife communities from obliteration.

Which is great! Listen, I wish you guys could have prevented the building of that huge super Wawa at 539 and 70. I see the dump near Chicken Bone near 72 and I wish something could have been done to stop that. You want to talk about destruction? That's destruction on a scale far larger than what irresponsible ORV riders will ever do.

I'm not sure of what you recommend as a compromise on the enviro side. Are you saying that the enviro's should look the other way when somebody wants to build an ORV park on top of T&E species habitat?

Where do you see me saying that?

Are we digging our heels in because we continue to do what our supporters say they want us to do? Or are you saying that we should contact real estate agents and tour the state with them, searching for the right place, help arrange the deal for the riders, coordinate the deal with the state agencies, advocate for the park in opposition to the local people who don't want the extra noise and traffic? Suppose we did that, and just handed the parks to the riders on a silver platter. Suppose we did all their work for them. Would it really do anything more than alleviate some small percentage of the illegal activity out there?

Hey you know what, actually if the PPA cooperated with riders clubs to help them find appropriate properties, and educate them on riding responsibly, it would actually go a long way towards doing something positive for the environment. The mission of the PPA, and organizations like it, is to protect the environment. Providing riders places to go and offering a safe, legal alternative to riding in places they shouldn't go would be a huge win for the environment. Unfortunately nobody wants to see it that way.

Also, the PPA could say to the DEP "hey, you know we'd see less riders in the woods if you'd actually do your job and keep your promises."

I think I must live in a dream world, though. Or maybe because I'm not beholden to either side I can see the forest through the trees. I am sure that nothing I will ever say here will change anybodys mind, which is incredibly sad because I think a solution would be easy to find if people worked together to solve a problem and dropped the "not my problem" attitude.
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
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I have mostly stayed away from this post because I see both sides of the argument, I really do. I think motorcycle riders (versus ATV riders) are generally respectful of the environment, and are more mature about their riding, and do little damage—even if some are illegal. And, I do see the point about trying to enjoy a sport in a stressful state. And I do see a need for more places to ride, and I do see that both communities need to come together and give a little on each side to make it happen.

But I saw damage today done by ATV’s that breaks my heart. I had heard about it this week, so I had to go out there myself. It is in Ocean County, in a pristine cedar bog with a lovely stream running through it. Take a good look at this. This is what gives ATV riding a bad name. This is why they are so hard on them. This did not happen last year, or last month, or even last week. It is happening now, and it is downright sickening. I know no one on this board could not be doing this, and we all know it is young people from the surrounding town that are ignorant of what they do. Even if you had 10 parks, would this stop? What can be done about this…today.

Here is the entryway. They feel compelled to leave a perfectly good sand road to enter the bog and have a free-for-all.

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Once you are in, just plow right through a virgin quaking bog.

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This cedar swamp will never be the same for a long, long, time. Its similar to tundra, it takes a while to gather itself together again.

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This closer shot shows the unique plants in a bog. There could be endangered species in here, like NJ Rush, Orchids, and Bog Asphodel.

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The only thing that stopped this guy was a cedar tree.

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Teegate

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Bob,

I was waiting to see the results of your find. I could tell by your voice it was not going to be good.

To me these are the people they should be going after, not those of us who pull our car off the road to park and wonder if we will be fined for it.

Guy
 

Ben Ruset

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That looks more like a truck than an ATV.

I hear ya Bob, it sucks. But obviously the threat of a $1000 fine didn't stop them. Would a $10000 fine stop them? A $1M fine?

The only thing that can be done to stop this today is to post armed guards at every bog and allow them to shoot riders. Obviously that won't happen, and no matter what happens, destruction to the environment will always happen because of the ignorant.
 

BobNJ1979

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The organized riding clubs of NJ (and i'm a member of one) probably know these forests out there just as good as anyone.. and we have EYES that cover lots of ground on a given day. am i the only one that has thought "we ourselves are the easiest solution to curb illegal riding" ? the PPA isn't going to do it, neither will law enforcement.. I can put 50+ guys on bikes on any given wkend and WE hate illegal riding more than anyone (b/c it gives US, the responsible ones) a bad name and we're sick of it.

and yes i agree, (as i'm sure anyone will).. that was not done by a bike.. maybe a quad or a small truck.. tough to say bob.. but the PPA will never bend.. like someone else said, they hear ORV and cringe.. they don't know the difference b/t good and bad.. I've been to one of their rallies (one held at batsto).. heck, some of the pictures they were showing were allegedly staged (damage done by them) on private land which they were not permitted to be on..
 

ZZ3GMC

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Sep 19, 2003
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I thought it was a truck also. The width between the ruts is too wide for any ATV that I know of. Its still a shame though. I saw a NJ State Park Police officer today while out riding, he smiled, waved and went about his business. Are they the same as the rangers?
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,358
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Yeah it's A$@holes like the people that did this that give all ORV's a bad name. I tend to agree that it looks more like the work of a truck than anything else. That doesn't look like a one time deal. I wonder if this was a bunch of them at once or some one is frequently doing this now. Bob, do you have any idea? Do you think they might be out this weekend. I am not proposing a torch holding angry mob or anything, but maybe a little creativity.

Jeff
 

G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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Thanks for posting the photos, Bob. I think we all agree that it is irresponsible ORV riding, not ORV's in general, that causes the trouble.

I just have to keep saying, PPA believes the best way to curb this sort of thing is for the state to have a comprehensive program that includes registration of the vehicles, education for the riders, ORV parks, and better enforcement efforts. We continue to work hard to get the whole program together.

To those who criticize what we have and haven't done, I recommend that you get directly involved. So many criticisms are clearly based on simply not knowing the facts.

Ben, but when you suggest that PPA has chosen this project because the ORV community is a softer target than developers, that is way off base. Anybody can give me a call and I will be happy to cite examples of some of the major development projects that we fought with everything we had.

As for the parks, I think most of us agree that it will help to get them set up. There's plenty of impetus from the riding community to get them set up. Most of the enviros have agreed that they should be set up. The DEP wants to set them up. PPA does not have any special powers or influence that would move this process along any faster. What would move it along faster, I think, would be for the riders to get better organized and do more searching for appropriate sites.
 

Ben Ruset

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Well, there's two aspects to the parks. There's the parks that the state promised to provide. That is being (mis)handled by the DEP's Division of Natural and Historic Resources. So, first we need to identify why that's being held up, and riders should push to get that done.

Secondly would be private parks. That's a great idea, I'm not sure, though, how easily done that is. Land is far more expensive - even in South Jersey - than most other places. It's also hard to find land in any significant quantity in a contiguous space - so even if you were to buy land, you'd probably need at least 100 acres to make a small park. Even if you were able to buy 100 acres of land, who can come up with that money? Perhaps some angel investor, but I doubt it. So you're looking at loans, which who knows if they are even possible to get for that sort of project.

That's why it makes far more sense to have the state build the parks, at least initially. Once the state parks get online and get active, it'd be easier for an entrepreneur to go to a bank, point out the success that the state parks are having, and get loans to build their own park.
 

bobpbx

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That looks more like a truck than an ATV.

I think it is a 4 wheel ATV. In fact, I think it is many 4 wheel ATV's. The tracks look wider in a photo. I cannot absolutely rule out a truck, but I don't think a truck would be able to get out of a quaking bog, and the tracks disappeared off into the distance.

Does it count that I saw a dozen ATV's zipping through the sand roads within 500 yards of this? Does it count that I saw only one truck that day, a mile from this?

I said to myself..."stand there and hand out flyers that ask them to stay out of wetlands". But what about the next generation? And the next? And who would follow me?

The solution to me seems clear; gated riding facilities should be built in about 6 different locations around the pines; equally spaced. The local schools must put education about OUR environment into the curriculum permanently. The fines for going in a bog and doing this AFTER incorporation of the above; Loss of bike/atv/truck AND $1,000.
 

MarkBNJ

Piney
Jun 17, 2007
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I think that was likely done by a jeep, or other mudhound vehicle. There are a lot of people living on the periphery of the barrens who like nothing better than to get up to their hoodline in a bog. You can find dozens of their videos on YouTube, and in fact if you just search on "New Jersey Pine Barrens" most of what comes up is "mudding" vids.

On one of my first visits to Apple Pie Hill we ran into an eighteen-or-so year-old driving in a brand new 2007 Wrangler with his girlfriend. He ambled over to check out the FJ, and we looked over his Jeep, which was covered with mud inside and out. You don't get that way on many, if any, of the established roads. He proudly proclaimed that all he likes to do on weekends is find deep mud and drive through it. We drove off thinking daddy probably wrote the check for that vehicle.
 

andy1015

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May 4, 2007
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I also think it was done by a truck, most likely a jeep. they have a narrower wheel base, and probably could get out of those mud holes
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Hmmm.....6 for a jeep or truck, only me for a quad. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I am going back over the weekend to gather more photos of junk the FRMC will be cleaning up on the yearly cleanup in April, so I'll be looking the area over more closely. What is the width of the jeep or truck track? Would my toyota do for comparison?

This is what I found Sunday. The first shot is the homeplace. There were three truckloads of offroaders there with a fire buring in the background. Its lovely, just friggin lovely.

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by the north branch, 3 miles from a paved road.

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BobNJ1979

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May 31, 2007
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Bob - is anyone welcome to join you on your outings ? i'd like to see that damage first hand..

and isn't that trash lovely ? (NOT).. dirt bike enduro / dual sport riders do not litter (as I've said before).. Hell, there's barely enough room for my tuss on my KTM's seat...
 
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