Closed to Mortorized Vehicles

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devilstoy

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Nov 21, 2008
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lindenwold
I share the same thoughts. I did a quick check on the number of park police and CO's that work the parks, forests and WMA's in that area and the count is 30 on the payroll. I don't understand why a small group cannot be put together every now and then to hit that site on weekends, as has been done in Greenwood at least twice. It doesn't sound like something so impossible to do and the effect would be more than reposting signs just to have them removed again. I wonder if anyone has checked to see how many summons' have been issued back there for existing reg violations, if any. Since they are separate state units, perhaps Parks & Forests and the Park Police need to get together and work more effectively together.

The fact of the matter is that the people back there aren't bothering anyone , yea some of the people are very disrepectful and are tearing up land , but the cops have alot more to worry about then a bunch of trucks in the woods that's are technically staying out of trouble , atleast there not out robbing and murdering people like half of the rest of the state , if people are concerned about underage drinking I'm sure the cops grab enough people on the streets on the way out , the state and developers already knock down enough woods and farm land to build houses so in theory why are they gonna worry about a bunch of truck tearing up some woods in the middle of nowhere , there's so many one sided people that don't look at the whole picture , and the purpose of njtlc is to spread education of the pines and try to get everyone on the same page , alot of people's paradise is seeing the pines untouched and alot of people see paradise being a nice swampy mud hole , it's like a double edge blade here and everyone seems to have blinders on and are so stubborn to see it any other way
 

ecampbell

Piney
Jan 2, 2003
2,616
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I've been short of time and sort of going on what has been posted here, but now you have me intrigued, so I looked at a few sources. The oldest of these is the 1887 Cook topo, plate 12, and the newest is the current map data and satellite imagery. Based on the map devilstoy posted I'd say the only existing road they are blocking is Hay, and while Hay is on the map I don't know how drivable it is, and have never been all the way from QB to Hampton on it.

So, they shouldn't be blocking Hay, if it still exists, but I don't see anything else in that area south of the tracks that has a claim to being an existing road.

Hay Road is very drivable, I've been on it fall, winter and this spring. Just wait till the hunters find out about this travesty.
 

Ben Ruset

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Oct 12, 2004
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Monmouth County
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The fact of the matter is that the people back there aren't bothering anyone , yea some of the people are very disrepectful and are tearing up land , but the cops have alot more to worry about then a bunch of trucks in the woods that's are technically staying out of trouble ,

No, they're not staying out of trouble. They're driving on land that is closed to motorized vehicles. Some of them are creating enormous damage to the environment.

The State Park Police doesn't have to worry about catching murderers and drug dealers. They're here to enforce the laws governing the State Parks. As citizens we should demand to know why that isn't happening, and just what they are doing with their time instead.
 
Jul 12, 2006
1,156
178
Gloucester City, NJ
There is no way that Wharton would ever be closed to motorized vehicles.

Firstly, there are paved roads that go through Wharton.
Secondly, there are dirt roads such as Quaker Bridge Rd. that are legitimate "roads" like any other out there. To block off access would mean that you'd have to declassify them as public thoroughfares, which takes more than just a ranger getting an idea that it'd be good to close a road.
Third, Wharton gets a lot of it's funding from fees paid by hunting permits. If you close Wharton down, nobody can hunt there, less permits get sold, and the DEP makes less money.

What I really want to know is, if the area has been off-limits for years, and signs have been put up and constantly taken down, who is crazy enough to think this is going to make any bit of difference? In fact, shame on them for wasting my tax dollars on signs that are just going to get destroyed.

Folks, we know where the people who are destroying the Pines are going. We have a pretty good idea of when they're going back there. A far more effective way of deterring this sort of activity would be to increase the number of rangers back there - at all hours of the day and night - and enforce the laws.

Don't take away access to the woods because you're unwilling or unable to do your job. If you're not funded properly enough, then get all of these concerned citizens focused on lobbying Trenton for more funding, find grant money, or whatever it takes. But don't think that nailing up a few signs and calling it a day is even going to remotely make a bit of difference.

Sorry, but shame on the Wharton State Forest Police for this one. If folks had been out enforcing the rules years ago, Quarter Mile would not be the mess that it is now. Everyone involved can pat themselves on their backs and say that they're accomplishing something. Well, since everyone (even folks in the NJTLC) agree that the signs are going to be destroyed, then you're just wasting your time and nothing really will happen.

Ben,

I had been reading this thread since the day I saw it posted. Yesterday, I had a 2-paragraph response that I was ready to post. After waiting a couple hours and re-reading my post, I decided to hold off in posting it. It would have added no good to the discussion and was more of a rant than anything else.

Then, I read your post here. You've captured exactly what I was trying to say in what I had written, but did it in a much clearer, matter of fact, way. I couldn't agree more and could not have said it better myself. The 2-key points of what you posted and what I believe are as follows:

- Signs didn't do any good "back in the day", what makes anyone think they'll work now? I don't appreciated my money being spent on them.

- Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement. The monies in fines collected alone would pay for the staffing to have these areas monitored.

Thanks again for finding the words that I could not.
 
Jul 12, 2006
1,156
178
Gloucester City, NJ
Ben,

I'm wondering (not sure if you'd share this info or not) if new membership to your site (this here site) has increased dramatically, since this thread was started. By now, I'm expecting those who frequent 1/4-Mile have heard/seen this either in person or via their 4x4 forums. Somewhere along the way, they did/will learn of this thread and hop on over to start posting/reading about it and displaying their displeasure for all the wrong reasons.
 

Gruf

New Member
Jun 24, 2010
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I have heard many people talk about how enforcment is the key. which is completely true. But I would absolutely be pissed if I got a ticket for being someplace I should not be, and there was nothing that let me know I should not be there. Signs itself is not going to do jack, but it is a necessary step in the enforcment process. Since in my mind in order to fine someone for going where they should not be, you need to make it clear that they should not be there.
 

devilstoy

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Nov 21, 2008
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lindenwold
THE STATE DOES NOT HAVE THE FUNDING OR MAN POWER TO PATROL EVERY SQUARE INCH OF WOODS , Then in summer they need to patrol the camps and make sure people with there families are safe and yes signs have never stopped people before but that's why njtlc started ! To educate the general public and volunteer our own time to do what we can to stop the destruction , what have you done except bitch about the situation ? Everyones answer is always your tax dollars pay the park police so magically everything should be ok , well my tax dollars pay that and also pay normal police but people are still out getting robbed , people see there tax dollars going into that open space and figure why cant they do what they want out there , you guys are so one sided and fail to even attempt to see it from another point of view
 

46er

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Mar 24, 2004
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Coastal NJ
Signs itself is not going to do jack, but it is a necessary step in the enforcment process. Since in my mind in order to fine someone for going where they should not be, you need to make it clear that they should not be there.

Issuing summons' to those ignoring the regs and making that very public would go a long way to making things very clear. Those destroying things know full well what they are doing. Wharton management does need to add some verbage and perhaps a small map to their handouts to educate any new comers to the forest.
 

devilstoy

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Nov 21, 2008
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lindenwold
I have heard many people talk about how enforcment is the key. which is completely true. But I would absolutely be pissed if I got a ticket for being someplace I should not be, and there was nothing that let me know I should not be there. Signs itself is not going to do jack, but it is a necessary step in the enforcment process. Since in my mind in order to fine someone for going where they should not be, you need to make it clear that they should not be there.

So Your telling me if you see a no motor vehicle sign it's not enough to let you clearly know you shouldn't be back there ? Perhaps you don't know how to read ? Cause that's exactly the purpose of the signs , if there were no signs you would pissed if u got a ticket , but you can't argue a ticket when you clearly drove by NMV signs
 

Boyd

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Jul 31, 2004
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This discussion has centered on a relatively small area where abuse is taking place, not "every square inch" of the pines. I don't know much about DEP regulations, but if this post is true, the fines that could be collected should support plenty of enforcement: http://forums.njpinebarrens.com/slag-heap/7783-1-4-mile-fun-2.html#post81924

State/federal wetlands regs.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/landuse/7-7a.pdf

One of the litany of laws being broken.

N.J.A.C. 7:7A-2.1(a), 2.2(a) and (b), 2.5(f), 2.6(a)
Conducting regulated or prohibited activities in a freshwater wetland, transition area and/or State open water without prior Department approval.

And the penalty for the above, in this exceptional resource area, would be more than $10,000 per day.

I would not want to be caught muddin in 1/4 mile if the NJDEP/LURP decides to prosecute

Catch these guys, haul them into court and take away their vehicles. That should get the word out to stay away...
 

Gruf

New Member
Jun 24, 2010
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1
Issuing summons' to those ignoring the regs and making that very public would go a long way to making things very clear. Those destroying things know full well what they are doing. Wharton management does need to add some verbage and perhaps a small map to their handouts to educate any new comers to the forest.

While I do agree that those tearing stuff up do know full well that they are doing something wrong. There needs to be a simple way for a park ranger or a judge to combat the deffense "How was I suppose to know I wasn't suppose to be there?" IMO rangers just can't give tickets to someone who is spinning tires, or going through mud or water. And unfortunatily I personally don't trust the rangers to be able to tell the difference between those who are destructive and those just enjoying the day. When you talk about laws and legal issues there needs to be a clear black and white, and there is no room for gray.
 
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Gruf

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Jun 24, 2010
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Devil story,

I am not saying that at all. I am stating my opinion that those signs are a very necessary first step in the process of resolving the situation. That was more directed to the people saying that the signs where not the solution and that they would not solve anything.

Side note: I don't have an issue with the closing of 1/4 mile. It was my belief that it was already closed to motor vehicles. On the other hand, I would be very pissed if other areas started to get closed off.
 

devilstoy

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Nov 21, 2008
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lindenwold
Devil story,

I am not saying that at all. I am stating my opinion that those signs are a very necessary first step in the process of resolving the situation. That was more directed to the people saying that the signs where not the solution and that they would not solve anything.

Side note: I don't have an issue with the closing of 1/4 mile. It was my belief that it was already closed to motor vehicles. On the other hand, I would be very pissed if other areas started to get closed off.

O ok I took that the wrong way then
 

ecampbell

Piney
Jan 2, 2003
2,616
656
Devil story,

I am not saying that at all. I am stating my opinion that those signs are a very necessary first step in the process of resolving the situation. That was more directed to the people saying that the signs where not the solution and that they would not solve anything.

Side note: I don't have an issue with the closing of 1/4 mile. It was my belief that it was already closed to motor vehicles. On the other hand, I would be very pissed if other areas started to get closed off.

Once more!
More than the scar at 1/4 mile was closed off. Roads that were used for at least a better part of a century were closed. It's easy to sell out something that you don't use everyday. Besides aparently there have been signs there before and look what good that did. Your just pi....g in the wind and making alot of enemies.
 

devilstoy

Explorer
Nov 21, 2008
355
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lindenwold
Once more!
More than the scar at 1/4 mile was closed off. Roads that were used for at least a better part of a century were closed. It's easy to sell out something that you don't use everyday. Besides aparently there have been signs there before and look what good that did. Your just pi....g in the wind and making alot of enemies.
i know the signs wont last , but if we stay up to date on them and people will see the signs replaced as fast as they took em down they might start getting the idea that maybe they shouldnt be there and realize that the area is actually being watched now , were making a legit effort wich is a lot more then anyone else can say that sits behind a keyboard all day just crying about everything
 
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