they caused the problem and we have to deal with the consequences. of course we are upset. your acting like we don't have a clue and your the genius here. why are you being this way?
Closed to Mortorized Vehicles
- Thread starter ecampbell
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im upset too , but i understand the situation and making the best out of it , whats done is done and no sense of crying about it now , the only thing to do is whatever we can do to prevent further damage and closures , but everyone loves to argue
Out of respect for all here and all their opinions, this is my last post here as well. We should not let this get carried too far. We can not accomplish or change anything by posting to this thread.
Ben, the reason for the lack of enforcement is the understaffing of the park police. When we replaced and painted the guardrails at APH, an officer stopped by. It was a Sunday. She told us that she was the only one on duty at the time. That is a lot of area for one officer. Rob told us about the lack of funding from the state. His staff was seriously depleted as well.
Another problem is the vehicles provided for the park police. They can not get to a lot of the areas the wheelers are destroying without hiking in. That would not be cost effective time-wise. And neither would sitting at an access point and waiting for them to come out, because it could be hours or another access point could be taken on the way out.
So maybe the solution is to write the politicians and complain to them. Will it help? Probably not. But it beats some of the name calling here and arguing a moot point.
I'm out.
-G-
Okay, so look - I understand that nothing here is new. These roads were closed off before. Fine.
FACT - The rangers have had their funding sources depleted.
QUESTION - What is being done to remedy this? Why are the environmental groups not pressing Trenton to get more funding for park police in the effort to keep people out of sensitive areas?
FACT - The area has been off limits since the 70s. It has been marked at various times.
QUESTION - Given that there are not enough rangers, what good will marking the trails do?
FACT - It was said that since the trails are now marked, it's going to give people fair notice before they start getting ticketed.
QUESTION - Given that there are not enough rangers, how are they going to enforce the signs?
FACT - The vehicles given to the rangers are not adequate to get around.
QUESTION - Guy drives a Ford Focus around to more places than anybody would think you could get to. These guys have the older Jeep Cherokees and the new Dodge Durangos. How are these vehicles not adequate? If they are not adequate tools for the job, then why were they purchased?
Look, these seem to be really simple, logical questions. Why does it seem like I am the only person asking to have answers for them? And why is some kid coming along and saying that "oh, the NJPB forums never stop" because we feel we have a right to answers?
Good, so now we know that the NJTLC is in the back pocket of some other group (PPA, the rangers, whoever) and that if you poke enough and ask enough uncomfortable questions they'll do what the PPA did here and say "fuck you, you just don't understand, I'm out of here" and take their ball and go home. Thats fine, then don't pretend to have "everyones" interests at heart. You have your own agenda, and right now that seems to be the public voice for making excuses for the rangers.
(This by no means is a public attack on anybody at the NJTLC, it's just how the group looks to me. And by god I hope a million people read this thread and ask the same question. It's about time that people expect - no demand - that the people that manage our public land be held accountable. This is far more important than some road being closed, this is more about a pattern of mismanagement, ennui, and perhaps gross incompetence that spans back several decades.)
FACT - The rangers have had their funding sources depleted.
QUESTION - What is being done to remedy this? Why are the environmental groups not pressing Trenton to get more funding for park police in the effort to keep people out of sensitive areas?
FACT - The area has been off limits since the 70s. It has been marked at various times.
QUESTION - Given that there are not enough rangers, what good will marking the trails do?
FACT - It was said that since the trails are now marked, it's going to give people fair notice before they start getting ticketed.
QUESTION - Given that there are not enough rangers, how are they going to enforce the signs?
FACT - The vehicles given to the rangers are not adequate to get around.
QUESTION - Guy drives a Ford Focus around to more places than anybody would think you could get to. These guys have the older Jeep Cherokees and the new Dodge Durangos. How are these vehicles not adequate? If they are not adequate tools for the job, then why were they purchased?
Look, these seem to be really simple, logical questions. Why does it seem like I am the only person asking to have answers for them? And why is some kid coming along and saying that "oh, the NJPB forums never stop" because we feel we have a right to answers?
Good, so now we know that the NJTLC is in the back pocket of some other group (PPA, the rangers, whoever) and that if you poke enough and ask enough uncomfortable questions they'll do what the PPA did here and say "fuck you, you just don't understand, I'm out of here" and take their ball and go home. Thats fine, then don't pretend to have "everyones" interests at heart. You have your own agenda, and right now that seems to be the public voice for making excuses for the rangers.
(This by no means is a public attack on anybody at the NJTLC, it's just how the group looks to me. And by god I hope a million people read this thread and ask the same question. It's about time that people expect - no demand - that the people that manage our public land be held accountable. This is far more important than some road being closed, this is more about a pattern of mismanagement, ennui, and perhaps gross incompetence that spans back several decades.)
What is this, a witch hunt?
The trails coalition has good intentions. They really do. I don't like it that everyone is slamming them down. This is only the first attempt by them to create some order out of absolute chaos. Can they improve? Yes, but, give them a break. Many of them took the time out to attend meetings, and I'm sure they are excited about at least getting something going for the environment. I don't see any hidden agenda.
They got the message loud and clear from many of you. It must frustrate them to no end to be jumped on, as if by a mob.
The trails coalition has good intentions. They really do. I don't like it that everyone is slamming them down. This is only the first attempt by them to create some order out of absolute chaos. Can they improve? Yes, but, give them a break. Many of them took the time out to attend meetings, and I'm sure they are excited about at least getting something going for the environment. I don't see any hidden agenda.
They got the message loud and clear from many of you. It must frustrate them to no end to be jumped on, as if by a mob.
Ignorance of the law is not a defense.Many have tried. If you need proof, go urinate in public and when you get the summons, tell the judge there was no sign posted. Let us know how many days you get.
Last post for me on this thread.
When I urinate in the woods aren't I technically urinating in public? Never been busted yet.Oh I use to drive truck in Philly,seen plenty of bums peeing on the sidewalk and never saw one of them get busted either.They were probably trying to.Nice warm cot and a hot meal,what the heck.
I agree ben.I have tried to get Guy to think about maybe four inches of lift.With four inches nothing could stop Him.Not even the road between Rockwood and wescoat bogs south side.
Al
Al
thanks to you guys who are understanding , it really does mean alot and bob thank you especially for what you just said
Actually it frustrates me when nobody demands accountability by people who we trust to take care of our forest. This goes far beyond the NJTLC.
I capitalized Guy and not Ben,that was rude.Sorry Ben
You see Devilstoy,I am kind of in the middle.I understand the don't limit my access club because I stone hunt for one and many stones are out in the boonies and I really don't want to have to walk half a day to get to a stone when i may have a dozen I'd like to find that day so access on roads is critical to a good day stone hunting.On the other hand I understand the close it up club too because I do like to be left alone in the woods unless i'm with friends and with a locked up wilderness being alone would be so much easier so that appeals to me too.So I'm torn between the two.I can't have it both ways i know but I know islands that see very few visitors so i may not be able to toatally get away from the whine of cycles and the roar of jets but I can get to places that it would take a very long time to find me if i told no one where I went to if I got hurt.So the pines is like a string of pocket wildernesses instead of one big one and i know it never will be a true wilderness unless the earth pulls a whammy on us like it did our distant kinfolk across the big blue recently.Hats off to em by the way.There has apparently been no looting,riots or panic.We could learn a few things from a society like that.It's ashame that what they learned from us has put them in this position to begin with.
Al
I totally agree , well I don't stone hunt , but the pines are my
Get away and there's certain places i love to go that would just really suck if I had to walk there , although I am an avid hiker when I just need to get away and relax I don't wanna walk a half day to get to my hide a ways , but don't want to see any major roads closed , 1/4 mile area can be very peaceful when no one is around , the woods around it are great and I usually drive into area right before the damage and park there and just walk thru that area and down the tracks , but now it's gonna have to be an extra long hike to get to that area and it sucks but I know plenty of other nice spots that I don't want to see blocked off
Well, I must admit I'm satisfied. I was seriously confused about the NJTLC's role in this and the state's determination of the amount of area to be closed. But thanks to very informative posts, particularly by Greg, Gipsie, and 46er, my questions have been answered.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion......and everybody has one. I haven't done a total 180, but I do think the NJTLC has the best interest of the pines (and the public that uses it responsibly) in mind.
Jeff
Everybody is entitled to an opinion......and everybody has one. I haven't done a total 180, but I do think the NJTLC has the best interest of the pines (and the public that uses it responsibly) in mind.
Jeff
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