Oct 28 9:45 6th annual PINE BARRENS 4 WHEEL DRIVE CLEANUP

[PineBarransJeepster]

Thanks for the info guys, and great pics PineBarrensJeepster. Nice Rubi, too! I need to get my hands on a trailer like that.

I think this whole thing is just fantastic. It's such a downer to see trash out in the woods. Not only does this get things a little cleaner, but its a great example for the 4WD community to set.

Actually the Rubicon isn't even mine, its just some pics I found of past years clean ups.

There's my Jeep at last years clean up.

In 2005 with the trailer I use. As you can see some spots do require the use of a 4wd vehicle but most spots can be gotten to via a 2wd. A lot of people have winches, and I personally carry a whole bunch of recovery equipment for getting people unstuck/tools for fixing things.

 

[Ben Ruset]

GAHHH why did I ever get rid of my Jeep?!?!

 

[Badfish740]

The red one, right? I was going to guess a 3-inch lift from the wheel well gaps, but then I haven't spent a lot of time looking at F350's lately, and I don't remember what stock looked like on the late 90's trucks. One thing I will say, that's back when they looked like trucks. Everyone's in full pursuit of curvy these days. I like angles.

Yeah the F-350s do sit high. When I got my 2003 I bought a 2.5" leveling kit for the front. The truck is still raked from front to back, but its not as dramatic as it was.

 

[PineBarransJeepster]

GAHHH why did I ever get rid of my Jeep?!?!

No idea, I did just get rid of one of mine to buy tow rig though.

 

[dragoncjo]

First off I appreciate everyone's effort in helping keep the pine barrens clean. However, I have some concerns and questions regarding wildlife that exists within this trash. I can't help but notice from that one picture that railroad ties are being removed from the woods. My concern is that things like this, railroad ties, large amounts of trash, boards, etc. provide hibernation dens to snakes and reptiles. These enviroment also provide microhabitat for species. I'm worried that removing this cover during the first couple weeks of hibernation time could have bad impacts on reptiles making it through the winter. I have read artilces on corn snakes hibernating within railroad ties or at least using them for cover prior to hibernation. I've also read that occasionally timber rattlesnakes will hibernate under railroad ties and other cover. I'm just curious what is done if a snake is encountered under something during this process? Is the piece of cover left there with the snake under it. How is the trash removed by hand or equipment? Like I said I appreciate the efforts made to clean up the pines but certain areas of trash believe it or not are crucial for reptiles for food, raising young, hibernating etc. I just hope some care is taken in removing certain trash, stepping on trash, etc......maybe some of the other herpers on hear can chime in, but I think it is a valid concern.
Thanks
Chris

 

[MarkBNJ]

I think the presumption is that all of these fauna got along fine before we humans started dumping our crap in the woods. I'm generally skeptical of "artificial reefs" and other such euphemisms being applied to our garbage. Many of those experiments have been less successful than proponents believed they would be (the tire reef in Florida being an extreme example). I'm more a fan of getting the stuff out of there, and would think that any short-term problems caused for animals who might be living in the trash would be outweighed by the long term-benefits in the health of the ecosystem.

 

[dragoncjo]

Well I agree the fauna certainly did get along fine before we started dumping our crap. Unfortunately many snakes get use to our crap being there and use it as rookeries, dens, etc. My only point is that I hope some care is taken if a snake is encountered, and also to let people know that there are sometimes some very rare creatures under that trash. My basis for this post was really a huge trash site I know of within the pine barrens that is just loaded with rare reptiles, or at least did at one time....if someone were to remove everything from that site I would think several species there would be very much affected. I'm not saying stop these cleanups I would just watch how many things like railroad ties are removed.....I'm not sure what kind of negative effect a railroad tie has on a environment, I know they have many positive effects on snakes though. A huge pile of railroad ties stacked together will no doubt serve as a refuge for at least a few snakes.

 

[MarkBNJ]

The safety issue is certainly a good point. Beyond that I have to admit I have never thought in terms of our having a responsibility to leave refuse in place once it's been there long enough to become habitat. Very interesting viewpoint. I'll further admit that in the case of non-toxic refuse that isn't causing ongoing harm, my objections to it are more aesthetic than anything else.

 

[dragoncjo]

I should note that I'm not talking about things like old bottles, cans, small cardboard, things like that. I'm mainly referring to the railroad ties, large boards, mounds of tires, larger things that are deeply routed and entrenched. I have found at least 4 pines snakes, tiger salamanders, marbled and red salamanders, racers, and other reptiles under this sort of thing. I just hope large equipment isn't used to remove these mounds of trash.....I would cringe at the amount of reptiles and small mammals that could be getting killed as a result. I know in particular at the sanctuary timber rattlesnake females were using a area of trash as a rookery to raise young. Has anyone ever encountered snakes under cover during these cleanups, I remember two pine snakes were found under cover during one in the spring.....I hope the animals aren't harmed. I know I would be awfully angry if I went out to one of my spots and all the railroad ties were removed, especially the stacks of them.

 

[RednekF350]

I'm just curious what is done if a snake is encountered under something during this process?

Chris

If I am the one that discovers the snake, I scream like a girl and look for the nearest board with nails in it to beat the snake with.
I would much rather displace a snake den or some field mice than to have to look at the crap that people have the balls to dump in the woods.
I live in Wharton and I am in the woods nearly every night. It sickens me to see the accumulation of stuff that would have been taken away by a trashman if only the person would have put it out at the curb instead of in the woods.
Scott

 

[dragoncjo]

At least I got through to one person, thanks Mark.

Scott, I realize you will kill a snake if you see one but I'd appreciate it if you could leave it there so people who have a interest in them can continue studying them before people like yourself wipe them out because of ignorance. I have no interest in the historic sites of the pines but that doesn't mean I go and destroy crap because I don't have a interest in it. To me you like the pines for everything it has good and bad.....I'm getting fed up with people like yourself possibly killing snakes because of ignorance.....it's getting old.

 

[kingofthepines]

Meet little yorkie. She was killed by a cottonmouth.

Meet Mr Snake. Killed by upset pet owner.

Some killings are justified.

 

[RednekF350]

Scott, I realize you will kill a snake if you see one but I'd appreciate it if you could leave it there so people who have a interest in them can continue studying them before people like yourself wipe them out because of ignorance.
... To me you like the pines for everything it has good and bad.....I'm getting fed up with people like yourself possibly killing snakes because of ignorance.....it's getting old.

You have got me dead wrong there junior!
I have never killed a snake and never would unless he was chewing on my good leg.
You apparently can't tell when I am kidding.
I don't care for snakes and that's the end of it.
I am far from ignorant on wildlife matters.
I have a degree in natural resource management from Rutgers (Cook '81) and I am well versed in the big picture of herps, furry things and invertebrates and their role in the world.
Scott

 

[Teegate]

Lets all sit back, take a deep breath ...... and relax.


Guy

 

[MarkBNJ]

I just finished dinner and a half-bottle of some Tuscan red, so I don't know about you guys, but I am major-league relaxed.

I know you are dying to ask what we ate with the wine. Well what else do you eat with a nice red wine?

A hoagie.

 

[LARGO]

Well,
I was gonna try to make peace but it seems Scott got the point across. Dragon, I doubt any person sincere to this site has a real disdain for any of the many things we all enjoy. I myself am not a fan of snakes but I just don't much bother with them. King's presentation is a bugger to argue though. I would probably side on that one although a bit harsh for this site.
Now, be it hunters, hikers, bikers, birders, herpers, historians, well, you get the point, fouled forests do none of us any good. I am not going to get all environmental on you but just humor me on this for your own purposes. Perhaps there would be some temporary disturbance of fauna, Herp, even Flora that finds haven to a pile of stuff but now think on the possibility that said stuff has chemicals or paint or oils and what not all else seeping into the ground, being transported by one of nature's mediums or another. That's no good to anyone. Maybe even if authorities found refuse over & over again on a semi historic site they might decide to do away with it somehow as drastic as to compromise the site. Very bad for historical types here. There are some fantastic photographers on the site, what of the garbage that infects the images that they share with us? What carries in the waters alone is bad stuff and can foul up fish and bird habitats.You think a car dumped in the woods or in a lake doesn't give off deadly things. Even a little thing like a detergent bottle or drano container... bad stuff. I would figure even if a lizard or snake scampered through the stuff it could track toxins to other dens? Your reptiles really are best served without the trash don't you think? Perhaps you and some mates could get a movement going to duplicate these habitats with natural stuff like wood resulting from blowdowns and such, unless of course you already engage in that.
For a lot of us it just plain looks like S**t! As Scott said, it all could mostly be dealt with by Johnny the trashman. I respect the views of herpers here and it has made me more conscious of my own past disturbances to the Pines. Your concern sounded good but in reality, your herps would be better off and all of us could better enjoy our Pine Barrens in our individual ways without the trash. Look at me, I grandstanded again, sorry all.
You got through Dragon, but there is a bigger picture.

g.

 

[dragoncjo]

I hear you, this went in a direction I did not want it. I more or less wanted to let people know to leave things like railroad ties there, and find out what happens if a snake was encountered, mainly to be aware that these things provide refuge for animals sometimes. I agree trash is hideous when I hike i normally carry trash out of the woods, and I like the idea of the cleanup it is great you guys to do it. My concern was just what happens if animals are encountered. Scott let me know that he would kill them, he was being sarcastic, sorry I did not understand his sarcasm its hard doing so on a forum. I've just come across so many people who don't understand snakes but continue to kill them because of some preprogrammed ideas. When someone posts about killing them it just leads to further myths.....that is why I responded the way I did. Thanks mark and largo for considering what I was saying. Sorry Scott if I pissed you off.....my bad.....no more f-ing drama. Kingofpines sorry about your dog, I'm guessing this was down south somewhere, since we don't have cottonmouths in jersey? Guy if you want to delete all this go ahead so we can get back to the original post.

 

[RednekF350]

Apology accepted.
Now, is anyone up for some good old fashioned frog gigging?

 

[Teegate]

Guy if you want to delete all this go ahead so we can get back to the original post.

Nah .. Just like the "disagreement" you just had, I would have that with the members who do not believe in deleting any post. Better left alone.

Glad you all worked things out.


Guy

 

[bobpbx]

Chris, if you come on the cleanup you can be the on-call herper, able to leap tall pines in less than a minute to come and take charge of found reptiles--ensure they are handled carefully and reinserted into a substitute home.

ta-da!