ORV Management In Sensitive Areas Of Wharton

46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
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PPA sent an email this morning. Some highlights:

"The state released a plan to protect the forest by placing some roads off-limits to motorized vehicles in August while leaving 225 miles open for vehicles.

Unfortunately, due to opposition from some motorized recreationists, the final plan will not be released until after a series of stakeholder meetings in October and a public meeting on November 5th.

In a disappointing move, the Department of Environmental Protection removed the draft MAP from their website in September. "
Unfortunately? Just 'motorized recreationists'? Really? The PPA were taken to school and got a much needed lesson in how things should be done :D :dance: ;), but I doubt they will learn from it.

I trust the DEP will issue a statewide public announcement for the meeting.
 
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smoke_jumper

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Mar 5, 2012
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We should also be petitioning the DEP to increase enforcement of the existing laws now. They promised at every meeting, that I went to, more patrols were going to happen with the roll out of the MAP. Now that MAP is on hold it should have no bearing on those increased patrols. And those patrols should target the hot spots, like Jemima Mount. I feel like that was just another lie to the public, in a long list of them. Instead of focusing on closing roads enforcement and education is the only way to turn things around. I don't want to speak for them but if those steps happened I think it would even satisfy most of the PPA:cool:
 

Boyd

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Unfortunately?
I have been avoiding this thread recently because I don't really have a problem with the closed roads, this just isn't my fight. However I do respect the opinions of those who are opposed to the MAP. The public should have had the opportunity to participate in the decision process and their input should have been considered. The whole thing has been @ss backwards.

So the PPA thinks it's "unfortunate" that the DEP is going to take public opinion into consideration? That is outrageous and makes me glad I dropped my PPA membership. I guess they think the proper way for the State to implement environmental policy is to work directly with a special interest group behind closed doors and not even reveal the plan to the public until after it has become law?

If they like that model, then they should be fine with the State working directly with a gas company to build a pipeline. :rolleyes:
 

smoke_jumper

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I have been avoiding this thread recently because I don't really have a problem with the closed roads, this just isn't my fight. However I do respect the opinions of those who are opposed to the MAP. The public should have had the opportunity to participate in the decision process and their input should have been considered. The whole thing has been @ss backwards.

So the PPA thinks it's "unfortunate" that the DEP is going to take public opinion into consideration? That is outrageous and makes me glad I dropped my PPA membership. I guess they think the proper way for the State to implement environmental policy is to work directly with a special interest group behind closed doors and not even reveal the plan to the public until after it has become law?

If they like that model, then they should be fine with the State working directly with a gas company to build a pipeline. :rolleyes:
To most of us it's not about just closing roads. The best argument I've ever gotten by either the DEP or PPA is "hopefully " this works to fix the problem. If I lived my life on hopes I'd play the lottery every day. I'm a realist and without my kids I probably wouldn't be as passionate about this as I am. I want these pines around for my kids to enjoy the same way I could when I grew up. Showing them pictures of where we used to drive doesn't sit well with me. Being a realist I'm open to everyone's opinion and I truly respect them. I only wish the PPA would do the same.
 

Menantico

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Feb 17, 2013
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I agree with Boyd and smoke_jumper. Not necessarily my fight (that would be this pipeline nonsense), but I understand the various points of view. I think there are ways to include as many voices as possible and reach a middle ground (tenuous at best) but the unilateral decisions that are being made take agency away from these voices and that's when people feel threatened, unimportant, and not included.
 

Y-BUC-BILL

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Mar 9, 2007
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I am surprised at the two previous responses..The closing of one road is not acceptable.The roads we are talking about have been in use the last 200 years.They have been all public roads.We all have to join this fight to keep OUR roads open.When a hiker gets cut, we all bleed..
 

Ben Ruset

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Areas like Quarter Mile and Hidden Lakes need to be shut down, patrolled, and given a chance to recover.

But I agree that the majority of the closures that the MAP advocates is just senseless overreach designed to discourage people from accessing their forest.
 

Menantico

Scout
Feb 17, 2013
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I am surprised at the two previous responses..The closing of one road is not acceptable.The roads we are talking about have been in use the last 200 years.They have been all public roads.We all have to join this fight to keep OUR roads open.When a hiker gets cut, we all bleed..
And thats ok, I think its healthy to have different perspectives otherwise we are left with homogenous points of view. I will absolutely stand with whomever is fighting, but I don't think its beneficial to make individuals feel "guilty" about what they believe. For instance, I am against the road closures, but I often play "devil's advocate" in order to look at the other side. I suppose that's habit from being a teacher of history, but there is much to gain when one tries to get into the mindset of the "enemy." History always demonizes moderates from both sides so trying to rationalize with both can be counter-productive. In addition, people enjoy the pines in a number of ways, which is why I hesitate to listen to any person or organization who tells me how to behave or how to react to a directive.
 

woodjin

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Nov 8, 2004
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And thats ok, I think its healthy to have different perspectives otherwise we are left with homogenous points of view. I will absolutely stand with whomever is fighting, but I don't think its beneficial to make individuals feel "guilty" about what they believe. For instance, I am against the road closures, but I often play "devil's advocate" in order to look at the other side. I suppose that's habit from being a teacher of history, but there is much to gain when one tries to get into the mindset of the "enemy." History always demonizes moderates from both sides so trying to rationalize with both can be counter-productive. In addition, people enjoy the pines in a number of ways, which is why I hesitate to listen to any person or organization who tells me how to behave or how to react to a directive.

Very articulate and thoughtful perspective.
 

Teegate

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If anyone has not attended a council meeting to see the DEP presentation by the Superintendent you can check it out tomorrow evening (9/22) at 7PM during the Winslow Council meeting.
 

TheePackRat

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Mar 27, 2014
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Made it to the meeting last night. It was the first one I had a chance to attend. It was the last town hall meeting. They announced four stakeholder public meetings that you have to register for? Plus another public meeting to be held at Hammonton High School.

I was not surprised to see the fire service and state park police send outstanding representatives. We are lucky to have folks like that in those positions. What did surprise me was the Wharton Superintendant and his attitude. It became very evident how he has come to be so untrusted. I don't see how he can continue to be part of the decision making. There was another fellow, who I did not catch his name, from Parks who drew everybody together outside after the meeting. Seemed like a good guy and did most of the talking while the Superintendant retreated to the shadows every chance he could. I very strongly feel that he is the wrong person to be in the position he is in. The trust has been scuttled to advance a personal agenda and I sure hope that his superiors recognize that.
 

Teegate

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Made it to the meeting last night. It was the first one I had a chance to attend. It was the last town hall meeting. They announced four stakeholder public meetings that you have to register for? Plus another public meeting to be held at Hammonton High School.

I was not surprised to see the fire service and state park police send outstanding representatives. We are lucky to have folks like that in those positions. What did surprise me was the Wharton Superintendant and his attitude. It became very evident how he has come to be so untrusted. I don't see how he can continue to be part of the decision making. There was another fellow, who I did not catch his name, from Parks who drew everybody together outside after the meeting. Seemed like a good guy and did most of the talking while the Superintendant retreated to the shadows every chance he could. I very strongly feel that he is the wrong person to be in the position he is in. The trust has been scuttled to advance a personal agenda and I sure hope that his superiors recognize that.

He is the Assistant Director. His name is John Trontis. I was there also. Did you stay in the Council meeting after or did you walk right outside?
 

TheePackRat

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He is the Assistant Director. His name is John Trontis. I was there also. Did you stay in the Council meeting after or did you walk right outside?
I went outside right away. Kinda kicking myself for not speaking up but I was having trouble putting my thoughts in order.
 

Teegate

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That all right about not speaking up. I only did at the first one at Medford Lakes. I decided after that I needed to sit back and keep quiet. I get annoyed too much when I talk.
 

Teegate

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In any event, that was the last meeting the state will be attending. So for the most part this part of the experience may be over.

For those of you who think this does not effect you or it is not your war, one of the comments by the Superentendent may change your opinion. The person sitting next to Jason asked about Natural area's and the Superintendent mentioned that typically they have limited foot traffic also. That should bother all of us because I am telling you right now that day is coming. Maybe not soon but it will come.
 
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TheePackRat

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In any event, that was the last meeting the state will be attending. So for the most part this part of the experience may be over.

For those of you who think this does not effect you or it is not your war, one of the comments by the Superentendent may change your opinion. The person sitting next to Jason asked about Natural area's and the Superintendent mentioned that typically they have limited foot traffic also. That should bother all of us because I am telling you right now that day is coming. Maybe not soon but it will come.
I am of the same opinion.

I read Al's opinion piece and it's really getting tiring to keep hearing that opposition is coming from those who engage in the destruction. We all know there are problems and problem areas but the draft solution doesn't address that and the park police don't have enough staff to patrol effectively enough. I think the best solution is to step up enforcement.