The 5th of November. What irony that they picked that date to have the meeting for this? Everyone here should register and attend as it still says to on the state forest website.
ORV Management In Sensitive Areas Of Wharton
- Thread starter Teegate
- Start date
Last edited:
*yawn*
This is the same old tired rhetoric that he has been trumpeting out since this began. He's continuing to gloss over the fact that it's not just ORV enthusiasts who are against this plan, but everyday ordinary people: kayakers, hikers, botanists environmentalists, historians, photographers, etc.
This part is what gets me:
When that person decides to close off 58% of the forests roads, maybe. The land was bought with, and maintained by, public funds for public enjoyment. Wharton State Forest is not Rob Auermullers private domain where he can play despot. There's one thing between closing one road here and there and another doing a wholesale closure like the MAP does.
In the end it's more misleading nonsense from an angry, bitter old man. He took all of the photographs needed to peddle his book, going down those same roads that he now wants closed. Now that he can start shilling his wares he doesn't need access. "I got mine! Seeya!"
Again, he's glossing over the fact that people are willing to meet with the DEP and come up with a compromise that will protect the forest while maintaining access that has been historically available since before Al was born! But that just doesn't sound as compelling as taking all of the anti-MAP people and lumping them into one group that you can easily demonize.
Oh, and as a side note: let's not forget that Al, Rob, and the PPA all said that no trees had been cut down. Yet now all of these people are admitting it. At this point I think all of the pro-MAPers have totally lost all credibility.
And Guy is absolutely right about it not ending with shutting down roads. Rob had made a statement that leaned towards shutting down all of the rivers and tributaries except for the Batsto, Mullica, and Wading. Sorry kayakers, you're next.
Last night's statement about "natural areas having limited foot traffic" will cut out the hikers. If you want to go do a PBX-style hike (with Rob has BEGGED to be allowed to go on) you'll be out of luck. I can see all of Wharton getting labeled as a "natural area" soon enough. (But if you want to visit there is one eco-tourism operation close by that Rob will heartily endorse.)
First they came for the Class 2 ORVs, and I did not speak out --
Because I did not drive a Class 2 ORV.
Then they came for the enduros, and I did not speak out --
Because I did not ride an enduro.
Then they came for the Class 1 ORVs, and I did not speak out --
Because I wasn't a ORV enthusiast.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for my hobby.
Al really sums it up well.
"There are currently all the laws needed to prosecute abusers."
Then why do we need more laws like the MAP? Let's use the existing laws to prosecute the offenders and not make new ones to not be enforced. Choosing not to give up roads to the people who will still do as they please isn't being "SELFISH" it's being real. Let's fix the problem not make more!!
I concur. Based on what I've heard from Rob, the State would eventually like to put in place restrictions that would almost make these closures seem modest.
Such restrictions would include, as Guy mentioned, limiting foot traffic to established trails as well as limiting canoe/kayak/boat access to very few "authorized" points. Rob even told me that there are really only four rivers in Wharton that are "authorized" for paddling. He even went to far as to say that paddlers do significant damage to the wetlands that they paddle and sometimes portage through, hence the need to restrict the accessibility of our many pinelands streams. It is a radical vision indeed.
I have posted this before. In many national parks even hiking off of permitted trails is not permitted. After fires they even rehab trails to discourage even walking off course. A good example of something similar is the beach. Just try walking on a dune at the beach. As a kid I used play on them. It doesn't make it right but if I let my kids do the same as I did today I could be facing jail time
.
.
Last edited:
I have to clarify: this is 100% speculation on my part. I'm not saying that PA is benefiting from the MAP today right now, but that I do think that Rob's end game is to totally limit how and where you can experience Wharton State Forest, and there's a few liveries/eco-tourism places that you can turn to.
I have posted this before. In many national parks even hiking off of permitted trails is not permitted. After fires they even rehab trails to discourage even walking off course. A good example of something similar is the beach. Just try walking on a dune at the beach. As a kid I used play on them. It doesn't make it right but if I let my kids do the same as I did today I could be facing jail time
Counterpoint: In many national parks the risk of dying is significant if you're inexperienced and go off-trail. I don't think that's the case in the Pine Barrens.
I think it's all about control.They want to know when you are sleeping and they want to know when your awake.They want you to stay on the trail so they know where your at and what your doing for goodness sake. Trails do not interest me.I can see problems in my forseeable future. Someone shoulda told them surveyors to put them stones along the trails! Geesh!
One final comment about Al Horner's latest masterpiece.
I've asked Rob several times for the groups that he consulted with and the names of the people that were there at those meetings. I have been stonewalled in getting that information. As for the Jeep Jamboree, from what I understand they're not going to be holding them in the Pine Barrens anymore (due to Rob). Most, if not all, of the entire state legislature and congress did not know about this either.
With regards to the Forest Fire Service - if they were so concerned with forest fire safety, why did they not consult with local municipalities fire and EMS crews? Green Bank, for example, went on record stating that they did not know about the MAP plan.
I've asked Rob several times for the groups that he consulted with and the names of the people that were there at those meetings. I have been stonewalled in getting that information. As for the Jeep Jamboree, from what I understand they're not going to be holding them in the Pine Barrens anymore (due to Rob). Most, if not all, of the entire state legislature and congress did not know about this either.
With regards to the Forest Fire Service - if they were so concerned with forest fire safety, why did they not consult with local municipalities fire and EMS crews? Green Bank, for example, went on record stating that they did not know about the MAP plan.
I have posted this before. In many national parks even hiking off of permitted trails is not permitted. After fires they even rehab trails to discourage even walking off course. A good example of something similar is the beach. Just try walking on a dune at the beach. As a kid I used play on them. It doesn't make it right but if I let my kids do the same as I did today I could be facing jail time
Going a bit off topic here but, do you have the names of those national parks? Every NP; Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Acadia, Shenandoah, Glacier, Canyonlands, Rocky Mt, Rainier, I have visited had no such park wide restrictions; the exceptions are individual trails that are located above tree line in areas where wash outs would occur. The one exception was Mt St Helens National Monument, but that is clearly understandable. I have not encountered any such restriction at our National Forests either. The Adirondacks in NY also allow off trail and camping just about anywhere, only restriction is 100 foot from a water source. As far as the dunes go, you need to educate yourself on the purpose they serve and what disturbing them can result in. It is not the sand so much as the vegetation that holds them together that is the issue, and then the winds take over and the dune disappears. During Sandy, the only damage done at a local state park was at the buggy access roads cut thru the dunes. You saw what happened due to the lack of dunes along the coast. It is not just the named storms that do damage, but any nor'easter. It is a very delicate balance and protection for those areas, just as those special areas in the pines, needs to be enforced.
Off trail in Yellowstone;
Dune nor'easter damage showing vegetation roots that binds them together;
A storm caused dune blow out;
Did you get any indication these plans would be rolled out state wide? There have been some posts in a separate thread that actions are being taken in other areas of the state.
I was in Shenandoah National Park. In a designated Wilderness Area. While I'm not sure of their official policy but the ranger that over saw the rehabilitation process was very adamant about trying to keep people on the trails. He didn't even want us to stray too far off. After looking it up last night it seemed that this may be more extreme then many other national parks but doesn't seem to far off the model that Rob wants.Going a bit off topic here but, do you have the names of those national parks? Every NP; Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Acadia, Shenandoah, Glacier, Canyonlands, Rocky Mt, Rainier, I have visited had no such park wide restrictions; the exceptions are individual trails that are located above tree line in areas where wash outs would occur. The one exception was Mt St Helens National Monument, but that is clearly understandable. I have not encountered any such restriction at our National Forests either. The Adirondacks in NY also allow off trail and camping just about anywhere, only restriction is 100 foot from a water source. As far as the dunes go, you need to educate yourself on the purpose they serve and what disturbing them can result in. It is not the sand so much as the vegetation that holds them together that is the issue, and then the winds take over and the dune disappears. During Sandy, the only damage done at a local state park was at the buggy access roads cut thru the dunes. You saw what happened due to the lack of dunes along the coast. It is not just the named storms that do damage, but any nor'easter. It is a very delicate balance and protection for those areas, just as those special areas in the pines, needs to be enforced.
Off trail in Yellowstone;
Dune nor'easter damage showing vegetation roots that binds them together;
A storm caused dune blow out;
As far as the dunes go I am very aware of the importance of the delicate nature of them. (My family owned a house on Kitty Hawk and I currently have a condo in Delaware) That may have been a bad example but the only reason I bought it up is the extremes going into protecting them today. A few weeks ago I was on the beach on a rough day witnessed 2 rescues. On a day when all eyes should've been on the water for life safety most of the times the whistles blew from the lifeguards was because someone wandered up to far on the dunes. I didn't mean to go off topic but my point was how in 40 years we look at things so differently.
I can understand the cautious approach being used in a rehabilitation area, that's a realistic reason and is not a far reaching as what appears to be happening in Wharton. Given the numbers that visit Shenandoah the rehab area would have a hard time rehabbing. Looking from my 2 eyes its not hard to question some things, but when there are many, many folks utilizing a place its also not hard to see a lot of harm done; the abused areas in Wharton as an example. Hopefully we have learned and changed over those 40 years.
Over the last 40 years I've witnessed a gradual decline in the health of the pines and Wharton State for that matter. A short drive down 72 proves it. There was nothing but pigmy pines. Now the trees are 50 feet tall and on top of each other fighting for every ounce of sun. As they age they become more susceptible to insects and disease. Is it years of fire suppression or a lower water table? I don't know, but I can say it effects the entire pines not just a few damaged locations. I can remember houses above those cellar holes at Friendship. I can remember many buildings and homes at Atsion that are no longer there. Quaker Bridge Road now looks more like a highway. I remember driving down it when I was about the same age as my kids are now. Every couple hundred feet there was a fork in the road. I would direct my dad on which one to take. We always stopped at "first beach" and put our feet in the water. It still looks relatively the same with the exception of all the sticks blocking it off. Keeping the heritage and feel of the pines should be as important as protecting the wild life. Without all of thes facets Wharton would be just another park.
You can thank the State of New Jersey for that. They burned the houses at Friendship, and neglected Atsion to the point that most of the buildings have fallen down. (And potentially burned down the cotton mill there as well.)
Al Horner and Rob Auermuller would both say that you are being selfish.
Both of them would be happy if Wharton was just another park, walled off on all sides with a thick sheet of glass. Look, but don't touch. They know what is right for the forest and everyone's dissenting opinion is irrelevant.
They say "you can never go home again". I remember my childhood in a suburban neighborhood where I walked two blocks to Kindergarten by myself, rode my bike all over the place. Went to the neighborhood movie theatre with my second grade friends and spent the afternoon. Trick or treating around town with no adult supervision.
Where was this idyllic paradise? Ferguson, Missouri.
All things considered, I'd say the pines have held up pretty well….
Who says I didn't write that? 
I grew up in Ferguson and I wrote that. It was a wonderful place in the 1950's. Here's a watercolor of our home c. 1954 by a local artist, it still hangs on my wall. It was built in the 19th century and my parents claimed General Sheridan slept there.
But this is getting really off-topic. My point was that things inevitably change and they could be a lot worse. And when it comes to your kids, chances are they will think everything you used to do sucks anyway.
I grew up in Ferguson and I wrote that. It was a wonderful place in the 1950's. Here's a watercolor of our home c. 1954 by a local artist, it still hangs on my wall. It was built in the 19th century and my parents claimed General Sheridan slept there. But this is getting really off-topic. My point was that things inevitably change and they could be a lot worse. And when it comes to your kids, chances are they will think everything you used to do sucks anyway.
I remember doing the same stuff, but I walked 5 blocks, and that was thru high school and was quite a distance away from Missouri.
I also recall getting on the local bus with my .22 rifle and taking it to the police range to shoot and nobody thought anything of it.