Here are a couple of points that I think are important to notice for future discussion.
1. I will do everything I can to make sure any future PPA statements are more sensitive to the distinction between illegal and legal riding. In return, I would ask that riders (or those sympathetic to them) not make unfounded accusations. And no, it is not PPA's responsibility to quell every unfounded accusation that arises, just because it is perceived by some to be widespread. If we ask someone to back up an accusation with facts and details, that is not "hiding." That's a perfectly fair and reasonable request.
refreshing to hear but an example of of fabrications and exaggerations is one of jr`s favorites 340,000 acres of state land has been damaged or ruined by atv/orv vehicles..... i know its symantics but i guess if there is any damage even a foot or yard then the whole acre is ruined ??
2. Similarly, I will do whatever I can to make sure PPA does not issue inflamatory statements. Others should make the same commitment in return. Please notice that it is not inflamatory for PPA to point out to the public that there is on ongoing problem out there. Stating facts that make certain people uncomfortable is not inflammatory.
3. PPA has been and is continually engaged in all kinds of educational programs about the valuable resources of the Pinelands. Riders are welcome at any time to forge an alliance with us on these programs or to suggest new programs. However, these programs cannot be viewed as an alternative to the effort to get legislation for the statewide program of registration that we are seeking.
As programs go I am a " Tread Lightly Master Trainer" and their disciplines are for motorized as well as non because all recreation has impact just in different fashions. The only way for this too work is for the state to adopt a management plan for motorized recreation with a buy-in from both the motorized community and most of the conservation community. There are some on both sides that will fight but the majority will. From the motorized side we will have to educate our riders on enviro issues and the fact u cannot ride wereever u want, from the conservation side it is going to be a hard pill to swallow but it will come down to making concessions on some areas that are not truly environmentally sensitive in return for the good chance that with legal venues and education folks will not go onto our sensitive areas i.e. wma`s, vernal pools,endagered species etc...
at the rare we are going nothing is getting done and lands are being impacted, folks are running and both L/E and riders could get injured.... enforcement is not the answer and I have been told that by no fewer than a half dozen land managers in other states.we cannot continue this anti legislation every year, we kill it and the next year its back and on and on. we need some kind of joint summit of parties that want a solution....
i have said enough ..good night..
4. PPA has been sending the same message since (I think) the year 2000, that we support the development of ORV parks. It's a position we adopted in response to many, many, meetings and communications and consultation with riders and organized riding groups. That doesn't mean that PPA would support the development of an ORV park that fails to conform with the CMP.
I will do my best to respond with courtesy to any and all who want to discuss these points. I hope we will all proceed with the principles of rational discourse in mind.
that's a question i'd like answered.. esp, considering, if you talk to any forest service worker (from a grunt to a warden.. in my case), they say they have no problem w/ legal riders riding the fire breaks.. they're fun, could be easily maintained, are pre-existing (made by the forest fire service), usually run in a preset direction, and could serve as a great basis for a trail system.Also, could anybody supply any good reason why motorcycles (with the largest tire rarely exceeding 5" in width) should not be allowed on fire breaks?
fire breaks are wider then the typical trail that a hiker or 2 wheeled bicycle or motorcycle would use. the berm on each side from the cut created also contains the traveled path through the woods. If they were designated as part of a trail system, I'd bet the enduro clubs would, within the SF they use would take on 100% of the maintenance involved (if no others joined in) in keeping them clear (downed logs and such) to prevent 'wondering' onto the forest floor. downed trees and logs normally only create a 'by-pass' around them in the vegetated floor... With a "rotation" of open trails it gives the used breaks or trail system some time to heal, if you may, and the depth of the loosened soil is reduced, just from time and rain compacting the soil again. The same practice is used at Clayton Park and Mercer County park in the woods were they allow Mountain bikes to ride and maintain the trails also. The tires don't really remove and dig up the soil, it sorts of fluffs up the sand. Rotation of firecuts within the system was a practice the enduro clubs had used for decades. Until they were disallowed or limited in there usage, it allowed the ground to compact and the "whoop de do's" to erode and level out. Use a fire cuts for a few years then stay out of it for 3,4,5 to sometimes 10 years.Wouldn't that eventually widen out the fire break to an all out trail?
yea.. AND you're damaging the forest.. live or dead (The tree). something could have been living in that tree - now you just used it for a roadblock..Hint.. hint... to the folks who cut down trees out there thinking they are stopping motorized travel.... .. not accusing anyone here... but it is a common thing to find out there... large trees cut down across fire cuts and trails, counter productive if you ask me..
Trying to catch up here.I agree that much of the facts stated in the PPA articles are exaggerations, and misinformation. Specifically, as was already stated 1)acres impacted by ORV use 2)the popularity of 2 stroke engines, 3)the severity of the situation.
Russ, do you have any idea how they came up with that acreage? I can only surmise that they are accounting for all areas where ORV's have been. Legal and illegal.Jeff
As you suggested education is a critical component of the management of any contriversy and many national organizations have already done much of this. Try NOHVCC http://www.nohvcc.orgThe thing is Russ, I have had alot of bad experiences with reckless ORV riders. I used to have kids riding past my house at midnight waking my baby up. I have to take the long way around to get to places from where I live now because roads have been closed due to reckless quad riders. I've seen environmental damage caused by reckless ORV users, and remember, I am a guy who has spent an insane amount of time in the woods. It angers me greatly. I blame these people way before I blame those involved in the movement to eliminate them.
But I know that increasing fines, and stricter laws, are not going to affect this behavior. 99% of these riders believe that they will never get caught, and 88% of them are right. I fear that inflammatory press and generalizations are going to affect the law abiding, environmentally aware riders like myself, and the enduro riders (you should see an enduro to appreciate how curtious these guys are) and the guy out cruising the pines in his jeep, or truck.
The solution is education. Sadly, many people view the pines as vast waste land, useless swamp land. If the PPA redirected it's effort from changing legislation to activily going to local schools and conducting presentations on the value and beauty of the pinebarrens, and responsibile vehicular use, I believe the results would be much more productive toward our common goal. Hell, some representatives from the enduro and 4x4 clubs would be overjoyed to work with the PPA on such an undertaking.
That's it. I'm tired. This subject has been beat to death.
I am not for that. Many fire breaks go through areas they never should have in the first place, like sphagnum bogs. The first time a little log falls down near the firebreak that does go through a bog, and what happens, they go around it, tearing up more of the bog.Also, could anybody supply any good reason why motorcycles (with the largest tire rarely exceeding 5" in width) should not be allowed on fire breaks?
Russell,Medford Piney: "... I guess I would like to see opportunities for non-street legal bikes, if managed properly within the state forest."
If by "non-street-legal bikes" you mean unregistered and untagged, how could they be managed properly? One of the biggest issues for enforcement is that you can seldom identify a rider who is in violation.
How many legal venues of what size would be required? Do you have any specific places in mind? I agree that the OHV fuel tax is an important issue. If that money were to be applied to a piece of property, what do you think it could buy?... an id system of a sticker with id #`s on both sides or front and rear of machine, or possible licence plates.But these are parts of a complete program and the primary component is legal venues without which there is no compromise... These same principals work in about 35 other states to the satisfaction of both sides, we in NJ need to move futher...
One other very important piece of the puzzle is funding and for those of you unaware OHV fuel gas tax pays for trails for all NJ USERS be it motorized trails(0) hiking trails (1500 miles) biking and equestrian trails etc. only in NJ do the people who pay get nothing in return and the people who fight against us get so much....
Understood... but if the land owner is able to reopen the operation and start the sand mining again, wouldn't that defeat the same concern you have??Medfor Piney: "as far as a park meeting the CMP and all, ... I think that converting an old strip mine to a park is completely reasonable..."
The devil's always in the details. It really is impossible to generalize, because so many of these old mines have become breeding ponds for T&E species, and you might have all kinds of water quality or other T&E species issues. Finding an appropriate site for an ORV park is probably the biggest problem we have.
Not discounting the rest of your post, but I'm afraid some will only see that part...No, that is not an answer to allow them to run willy-nilly up any old fire break.