Red Oak Grove (and Union Clay Graves)

[jokerman]

I'm also in %100 agreement about not disclosing the location of the graves. This web site already provides a slough of info and shortcuts to the pines. I haven't found the Graves yet, but will feel much better about it in the future when I find them on my own. I can just imagine how much work Beck must've done to find them and how much more satisfaction he got from doing so. I wish I could find all the lost places on my own. Who wants all this underground stuff exposed anyway?
Maybe the guys who currently know where they are shouldn't visit them during times of snow cover!

 

[Ben Ruset]

My rear main seal leaks, that's about it.

 

[manumuskin]

Bruset,
Red Oak Grove is not on that skinny road your show your truck on.It"s south of that road.at the south end of that road where it pops out onto the bigger road and you can go left,right or straight ahead on bigger roads go right.red oak grove with the cellar holes and BIG red oaks is perhaps a half mile down on the left.no car there that I found.this place is awesome and easy to miss.

Jokerman perhaps since were looking for the same thing we can team up out at the clay works and scour the woods together.I have an idea where they may be now since it"s one of the few places I haven"t covered and I"ve terrasurfed the joint and tell by the vegetation pattern where the disturbed areas are and the photos show all young pines.I wont waste anymore time in the oaks.If you haven"t found red oak grove I"ll take you there too.
One thing I can say about these closed mouth characters we have on here is they"ve forced me to look all over and I"ve found some neat stuff I never woulda found if I"d of went straight to the graves and been satisfied.See the thing is I don"t know what surrender means and will keep going.I"m not a grave vandal and i don"t need a trail to refind places I already been and thats without a gps too.
hope to see you up there.
Al

 

[Teegate]

One thing I can say about these closed mouth characters we have on here is they"ve forced me to look all over and I"ve found some neat stuff I never woulda found if I"d of went straight to the graves and been satisfied.
Al

Al,

Lets look at it this way Al. Lets say you were me and knew the location of this place, and you posted that location for all to see on this site. Then you found out that a large number of people now know where it was and it became permanently damaged because of your indiscretion. Could you sleep at night knowing you were the cause of this event? I couldn't, and Ben can tell you so. I don't know you or most of the members of this group, especially the one's who don't post. One member on Barry's site had a profile that caused Barry and I to wonder if he was looking for info to destroy the places we all love to visit. I can't find Barry's letter to prove to you how concerned we were, but Barry may chime in on this and help me out. Bob will tell you that it is best to keep your favorite places to yourself, so that you can go there without fear that others will find it and compromise it.

I am assuming you are not nearly as old as I am, and I am chalking it up as youthful exuberance on your comment on "closed mouth characters" not telling you where things are. If you take a close look at the forums you will notice that almost nobody gives out the location of the important places that they go and you should not also. That is what outings and such are for so that the individuals who are really interested will show their faces and share information with others. That does not mean they will share all, just what is needed at the time.

Steve, I appreciate your comment where you said "I agree with that 100%. I enjoy a challenge and consider this a quest." You also must remember as I do when the warehouse at Hampton Furnace had twice as many bricks as it does now because of vandalism. When they run out of bricks to take there, the Union Clay Works grave is next. I feel sleep deprived already!

Guy

 

[manumuskin]

for your info Teegate I"ve found probably over a hundered bricks dozens of pipes some over six feet long among other old artifacts and haven"t touched one.I"m a caver and know all about vandals.I"ve seen caves trashed that were once beautiful and caves that have been closed because of vandals and I really can"t blame you for not trusting me or anyone else I just get tired of being treated like a vandal because so many other people are.Yeah I probably am a lot younger then you.I guess that makes me a vandal,and no I don"t have 20 earrings and tattooes and toungue studs in my body and don"t live to party and throw trash all over the woods.Actually I pick a lot of trash up when I see it.I"m 39 have 4kids of my own and one grandkid so I guess I"m not that young.You know Jersey really has a bad rep for pepole being suspicious of everybody else.maybe rightfully so.I do most of my caving in WV and the people there are nothing like they are here for the most part anyway.People there will go out of their way to help a complete stranger and not worry about getting mugged.They"ll let you walk and cave on their land without worrying about you sueing them when you twist your ankle.I could say I"m ashamed of NJ but I"m not because I love the barrens and the marashs and the swamps as much as the mountains I"m just ashamed the human race is so pathetic that they can"t trust each other.your right you never met me so I can"t blame you and even I tend to trust old folks more then young ones,especially the ones that attract lightening with all their metal so sorry about the close mouthed characters comment I just can"t go thru life like that.I"ll find those graves on my own and let you know when I do so you can run out there and check behind me to make sure I didn"t pee on em or anything like a nasty vandal would.I don"t do stuff like that to peoples graves who lived in a time when even in jersey you could trust a stranger.Seeya at the clay works.
Al

 

[yellowspottedcat]

Be care about stereotyping people. I am 32, and I don't have 20 earings, I have 17 and a rather large hunk of steel rammed through my tongue. To top it off I also have bright purple hair, but I also keep a box of trash bags in the back of my truck, because all that trash out in the woods really annoys me. It not uncommon for me to pick up complete piles of debris that some idiot has carelessly dump out in the Pines.

I to am on a quest to find these graves but have been spending most of my time the past few weekends exploring around Bear Swamp Hill looking for the landing gear from the F-105. Once I complete this, I will devote more time to the Union Clay Works area.

For what its worth, I can honestly say that once I do find the graves (and I will) the only damage I will do is to leaves the woodsa little cleaner than when I got there. The only trophies I need from these adventures are my memories and a few photos if I remember to bring a camera.

Yellowspottedcat

 

[Teegate]

for your info Teegate I"ve found probably over a hundered bricks dozens of pipes some over six feet long among other old artifacts and haven"t touched one.I"m a caver and know all about vandals.I"ve seen caves trashed that were once beautiful and caves that have been closed because of vandals and I really can"t blame you for not trusting me or anyone else I just get tired of being treated like a vandal because so many other people are.Yeah I probably am a lot younger then you.I guess that makes me a vandal,and no I don"t have 20 earrings and tattooes and toungue studs in my body and don"t live to party and throw trash all over the woods.Actually I pick a lot of trash up when I see it.I"m 39 have 4kids of my own and one grandkid so I guess I"m not that young.You know Jersey really has a bad rep for pepole being suspicious of everybody else.maybe rightfully so.I do most of my caving in WV and the people there are nothing like they are here for the most part anyway.People there will go out of their way to help a complete stranger and not worry about getting mugged.They"ll let you walk and cave on their land without worrying about you sueing them when you twist your ankle.I could say I"m ashamed of NJ but I"m not because I love the barrens and the marashs and the swamps as much as the mountains I"m just ashamed the human race is so pathetic that they can"t trust each other.your right you never met me so I can"t blame you and even I tend to trust old folks more then young ones,especially the ones that attract lightening with all their metal so sorry about the close mouthed characters comment I just can"t go thru life like that.I"ll find those graves on my own and let you know when I do so you can run out there and check behind me to make sure I didn"t pee on em or anything like a nasty vandal would.I don"t do stuff like that to peoples graves who lived in a time when even in jersey you could trust a stranger.Seeya at the clay works.
Al

At no time did I single you out as a vandal or anything else. And on the subject of trust would you post your credit card number on this site? No, because you don't even know us. So why post the location of a place that you feel is important and quite fragile on this board? I didn't know Ben when I first joined this site, but after meeting him and going on outings with him, he earned my trust and hopefully I earned his. So we share much of the info we know between us. If it was you who I met as I did Ben, and we earned each others trust, I would have told you all I know. And hopefully you would have told me also. That's all there is to it and nothing more.

So lets not get off on the wrong foot here because you already have been more involved with this site than most of the members, and I see only positive things coming from that.

Guy

 

[BEHR655]

So lets not get off on the wrong foot here because you already have been more involved with this site than most of the members, and I see only positive things coming from that.

Guy

I agree. Like Rodney King once said, "Can't we all just get along."
(I think that was the only thing he ever said)

 

[jokerman]

Al,
I'm just going to add one comment and I hope it will serve to settle this discussion which is getting a little out of hand. The decisions about giving the location of the graves is not a personal one toward you and I'm not quite sure why you feel it is. It's not a decision that can be variable unfortunately or else it wouldn't serve its purpose. The worst thing this web site could do is become an easy way for people to get the locations of the lost towns, etc.. There just can't be any exceptions with some of the locations as far as internet information. I don't think you seem like a person who looks to deface anything and I don't think anyone else does either. I kinda' see as it as a inherited respect that will only be passed onto a person via the extra time that finding it will provide. In other words, people who spend the time getting there will hopefully have more respect for it (not that you don't) as a result of having had gone through the same rigors as those before, and hence, probably will want to hold onto the secret for themselves.

As far as Red Oak Grove is concerned, from what I've heard so far the current accepted location of Red Oak Grove contains nothing of significance. Is this right, have others determined the grassy area on the left down from Union Clay to be the accepted location of Red Oak Grove?

I will look forward to searching for the graves with you when the damn ticks fade out.

 

[Teegate]

I to am on a quest to find these graves but have been spending most of my time the past few weekends exploring around Bear Swamp Hill looking for the landing gear from the F-105. Once I complete this, I will devote more time to the Union Clay Works area.

I can give you some help on this one, since someone has unfortunately placed a geocache there. So if you have a GPS go to geocaching.com and search for that particular cache and you will have your answer. That place is cool but not very fragile. I first learned of it when I visited there in the mid 70's and a man and his son told me about it. I have not heard of anyone else mentioning the location until the cache was placed there. You may want to wait until the fall because on our last outing when we went there, I was showing the way and still had problems getting directly there. One of the other members of the group who had never been there actually found it first. It is very dense there this time of year and the ticks are really bad. I can't stress that enough.

Guy

 

[manumuskin]

Ok yellow spottedcat point madeThe metal and tattoo thing ain"t me but I appreciate you pickin up the trash and If I see purple coming my way thru the woods I"ll holler for you.I"m a bit more subdued myself,camo or plaid earth colors and I like to stalk and track but hey purple is my daughters favorite color just keep your tongue in your mouth during thunderstorms.had a helluva one out to the clay works last weekend and I was in it.
Now for you Old man Teegate
Lets Hold a truce.I kinda like you even if I never met you.A world where trust was natural and didn"t have to be sweated out of each and every individual would be nice but your old and wise and i don"t even have a credit card.learnt my lesson once and I don"t trust myselfHa imagine that.No plastic for me.
I will find the graves but don"t worry I am no vandal and I only have one friend that would even be interested and he"s no vandal and quite trustworthy and till i taught him the barrens he couldn"t of found his way back to it anywayIm so old fashioned about navigation I didn"t break down and get a gps till a couple months ago.Great toys as long as you don"t trash your maps and compass and natural nav skills.
Maybe I"ll run into your old self out there.I"m 5"11 about 230 have short black hair and a big red beard and glasses and drive a 4by 4 forest green suzuki vitara with a bent up front plate from icebreakin deep barren puddles.never could straighten it out.gives it character along with that scratched up scrub oak look.I"ll be officially old next year at 40 so I can still crack old jokes till then.
Them graves done give me chiggers and I ain"t even found em yet so you have a good day old man and let me git back to scratchin,MMM that feels good,almost worth gettin em.
Al

 

[BEHR655]

yellowspottedcat and manumuskin,

By your descriptions, I think I've seen you guys out there before. I'm 6'3", bald with a grey goatee and drive a dark green 4x4 Escape. Check out this pix from my gallery. If you see me out there flag me down.
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/albums/album93/aab.jpg

Steve

 

[Ben Ruset]

Everyone,

Before this gets too far out of hand:

There are far more people who come along here, don't register, don't post, and just lurk. I have no idea who or what is reading this site. I get 35,000 hits per month, and push about 2-3gb per month in traffic. To say that this site is popular is an understatement. I would surmise that 90% of those people come here with an appreciation of the area, and are good, honest people. It's the other 10% that I am worried about. The last thing I want to see is a Geocache placed at the location of the graves, or any other "sensitive" spot. (Sorry Ken, not to single out Geocachers, but it would bring in a lot of foot traffic.)

All it takes are a few people to go in, beat down a trail, and then voila, Joe Sixpack and the WeirdNJ crew come in and trash the place.

It's not just the location of graves. Nobody wants to post locations of rare plants or other fragile treasures or sites. The risk is too great.

Does this mean that I don't condone people searching for the site? No - I want you to look for it. Being out in the Pines, searching for old, forgotten history is what this site is all about. Who you tell once you find it is your business, and the repercussions of your actions falls on your shoulders. All I ask is that you do not post specific directions to the site here. That would be the fastest way to get yourself banned from here.

It's a judgement call as to what is "sensitive" and what should be shared. We post a lot of directions to get to places, but most of the times the places that we post are well known, or can handle the traffic of visitors. If you are on the fence about posting something, ask me first before you post.

Nobody is pointing anybody out, accusing anybody of being a grave robber, or a vandal. If you have a problem with someone, PM them and discuss it offline - there is no room for flame wars on this message board.

 

[manumuskin]

Steve
will do.the only people I"ve seen at the clay works so far are dirt bikers.up and down the road constantly.very irritating.I think if they get off that road they must get lost because they go back and forth every half hour.the same ones.6"3 that would be hard to miss.seeya out there.
Al

 

[bach2yoga]

yes, the baptist cemetary is what i mean. by the way... has anyone been able to locate anything of interest at Catawba besides the one gravestone? it has been a while since I was there but i never really noticed any cellar holes or foundations or anything really. i metal detected all over that area and i never found anything. there is supposedly "buried treasure" associated with this lost town too. when i pointed my metal detector to the old glassworks at estell manor, however, i found many neat things ecspecially around the workers houses area.

-Benny

If you are facing the church, the Baptist cemetery is across the street on your left. There are about a half dozen markers there.
Renee

 

[njvike]

i metal detected all over that area and i never found anything. there is supposedly "buried treasure" associated with this lost town too. when i pointed my metal detector to the old glassworks at estell manor, however, i found many neat things ecspecially around the workers houses area.

Beck also tells the story of Pasadena, I believe, where a possible murder took place. Apparently, the woman who lived there was to have wealth but nobody ever found it. Since you have a metal detector, you might be lucky

Good luck

Ken

 

[Ben Ruset]

Ken,

Check out this article which goes into detail on the history of this area. I will quote the relevant part:

In 1915, there was an interesting incident that began with the laborers from the Central Railroad of New Jersey going on strike at the Brooksbrae siding. The strike tied up the rail lines and attempts by railroad management were unsuccessful in easing the tensions. In response to this, agents for the Brooksbrae Brick Company sent a caretaker to the factory. However, during a cold night, the elderly caretaker and his wife lit a fire in their stove without checking or cleaning the chimney’s flue. Smoke backed-up into the house while the couple slept, and within hours it was ablaze. The next morning it was found in ashes by several workers from the nearby Bullock cranberry bogs. After an investigation it was determined an accidental death with no foul play involved. However, the locals in the area, remembering the strike several days earlier, insisted that murder and robbery was the real cause. When Henry Beck recorded his tales about Pasadena, it was this last tale, about murder, that he attached to name “Peggy Clevenger.â€

It would be interesting to find the site of the caretakers house. I would love to get my hands on the tax maps for that year.

 

[njvike]

Yes, that's the story. So far, it's the only story that my wife has been interested in. She isn't a piney or Beck fan yet but I leave the Beck books near her PC all the time in hopes that she will start reading the many great stories so she will become a fan.

I did a lookup on Jersey Wagon Jaunts but haven't found any for sale. I wonder if anyone in the group has it as I would like to know what areas were written about.

I did recently order a Beck book that somehow got lost. This is the Jersey Midlands and is the only Beck book that is currently missing from my collection.

Looking at the date of Jersey Wagon jaunts, it appears that Heston was ahead of Beck in this field of work. I also ordered another book that was missing called "The Old Mine Road" by C. G. Hine which also features an introduction by Beck.

I did some exploring of this area on Sunday and there are *some* similarities as to being a remote area with plenty of history an only some ruins to show.

Perhaps, in the fall sometime I will offer a tour if anyone is interested. Would this be okay with the group since this group is really all about the Pine Barrens?

Ken

 

[BEHR655]

Ken,

I'd be up for it. I like history in general. My wife, who is researching here geneology, bought a book on the history of Camden County. One of these days I'll let her read it.

Steve

 

[njvike]

Ken,

I'd be up for it. I like history in general. My wife, who is researching here geneology, bought a book on the history of Camden County. One of these days I'll let her read it.

Steve

Hello Steve,

I just wanted to make sure it was alright mentioning about a trip other than the Pines. I believe most people would really enjoy it. I think the fall would be nice since the trees would be turning color. The view is awesome from High Point and Stokes state forest. There are plenty of ruins to see and I will post some pictures when the server work has been completed.

My only concern is the drive for you guys. I would say that from Chatsworth it's a good 2 - 2 1/2 hours away. You won't have to worry about scratching your vehicles here :lol:

Here's some links that might be of interest:

http://www.njskylands.com/pkwalpack.htm

http://www.njskylands.com/hsoldmine.htm

http://www.nps.gov/dewa/InDepth/Spanning/stgOMR.html

And of course C.G. Hine

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0813504279/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_1/103-2183537-8912648