Sunrise at 1/4 Mile Road
- Thread starter Teegate
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Be careful what you wish for....echoing the opinions of others here, I think we have to be REAL careful about suggesting policy changes on how the forest is managed. In the 2002 era when enforcement was increased there were many problems that infringed greatly on our ability to "get away from it all" and enjoy the pines.
Demand a definitive vehlicular access trail map, and you just might discover that 50% of the trails you were using are now off limits. Politicians and law enforcers don't understand the wood like we do. I got a ticket once for driving through wetlands...it was a puddle on a major dirt road after a rain. This is what things could come to on a regular basis.
the people tearing up 1/4 mile are already breaking the law. More restrictions will not correct or prevent the situation in the future. The park police have a responsibility to enforce the existing law in that area and they NEED to act on that. That is what we are paying them for. If the problem arises in a new location then the police need to respond to that as well. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Pinelover, I know your heart is in the right place and you do care deeply about the pines but please don't accuse another poster of making things up (referring to your reaction of BJJ last post). Also, please stop saying that the grass and frogs are speaking to you....it is starting to freak me out a little
Jeff
They are and do every time I go back there and see more dead/ground vegetation and more dead frogs in the ruts and soon to be dead frogs in the puddles with oil stains.
In fact I do vernal pool surveys every year for NJDEP and can mimic most species accurately enough that they will call back to me.
All funding from fishing and hunting licenses goes to WMA's in some form or another and nothing else
And they stopped the same problem in the large sand quarry in MRT off of Rt. 47.
The SP and sheriffs blocks all the exits, ticketed and took driver ID from everyone and warned them if they were caught again................
All that money does not just go to WMA. In the past it did but it goes into a general fund with all the other state money. Money is then bugeted out thru out the state.
Just to help matters a little bit I think I will take my expertise and find out the oil levels in different puddles compared to the levels in Atsion Lake. I'm an analyzer tech and have the ability to measue hydrocarbons in water within a 1ppm accuracy. If someone would like to witness where I grab my samples from I'm fine with that as well so noone thinks I'm being biased.
It does too, by state law. It cannot be spent anywhere else
I work with Fish and Game on purchasing open space to hunt and fish and they are the only folks that have the money nowadays, to do such purchases, The Green Acres fund in nearly depleted, although the PLC conservation fund still has some $.
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/licenses.htm
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The New Jersey Division of Fish and Wildlife issues licenses, stamps and permits for hunting, fishing and trapping. The first license, a non-resident hunting license for $10.50, was introduced in 1902. The first resident hunting license was required in 1909, hunting license at a cost of $1.15. In 1915 the first fishing license was required, enabling law enforcement to be adequately funded. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Today the revenues derived from these sales support, in whole or in part, the operations of the agency. This work includes the operation of two fish hatcheries and associated stocking programs, a pheasant farm, enforcement of fish and wildlife regulations, habitat protection, fish and wildlife research, wildlife management area maintenance and improvement, education and other programs and activities. The number of licenses sold also figure in the amount of federal grants money the state receives from the federal Sport Fish and Wildlife Restoration Programs. [/FONT]
Dave you could seen the sheen on the surface of the puddles on the trip I did 3 weeks ago. I picked up 4 empty auto trans containers, besides the beer bottles and cans and an empty and a partial full container of 2 stroke oil. Frogs and salamanders are effected by even small amount of VOC's in their habitat.
Agree with you there. If enacted the fees would be wasted and the problems would persist. Punishing the innocent is not the right approach.
There you go again lumping everything together. There is another poster on here that will verify both of these stories as he was there. I guess equestrians are of a higher caliber than us lowlife pines explorers. Just becasue I had an issue on 2 occasions, I am not saying all equestrains are jackassses, nor should you state that all off roaders are jackasses, so far I see you points as one sided and you have an overbearing unwillingness to listen to any opinion but you own and other like opinions ( read as politician). The only "Fairy Story" here is yours and your agenda.
On a second thought about permits, now that other opinions have been posted, I tend to "see the light" on this issue and agree that it would be nothing like a buggy permit and do agree it would be an exercise in punishing the innocent. See PL, I read and listened to other folk's opinions and accepted them to and extent without coming off like I am better than they are!
Pinelover, I know your heart is in the right place and you do care deeply about the pines but please don't accuse another poster of making things up (referring to your reaction of BJJ last post). Also, please stop saying that the grass and frogs are speaking to you....it is starting to freak me out a little
Jeff
Jeff,
Lets hope you are right about PL, and thank you
I been riding horses in the Pines for 20 years.
I never saw anyone ever drink while riding in Wharton or any state lands, never saw them leave unattended fires in illegal locations during a fire ban, never saw piles of trash and beer cans left behind, never saw them leave oil sheens on puddles.
But I see all the above do that on a weekly basis at the Scar.
The horse riders and hikers and kayaks are not destroying the Pines.
The illegal 4 wheelers are.
No matter how many folks want to shift the blame.
What is the ratio of jackass 4 wheelers to jackass equestrians?
You are just interested in shifting blame.
The horse riders are not destroying the scar the illegal 4 wheelers are.
So Dave
So of the perhaps thousands of vehicles that drove through the scar, none ever leaked anything?
I was back there a month ago and was asked if I had any ATF, because some guy blew his trans and couldn't get out of there.
I have a few thoughts rattling around in my head and maybe both sides can add or subtract from these ideas. 1. 1/4 mile area should be shut down and access blocked. Signs could be placed around the area listing large fines for getting caught driving in the area. 2. An alternate site must be established(I hung out at Hidden Lakes and when it closed everyone went to Chatsworth Pit)The spot by the Delaware River sounds good but a private party would probably have to run it. Insurance and maintenance could be covered by a membership fee. Money could also be raised with a concession stand and it would be a great spot for Dave to have his mud racing.3. The Jeep Jamboree should be allowed but be informed that any activities will be observed and any infractions could result in revocation of their permit. I like walking in the woods but I prefer to drive as close to a spot before I start and I don't want to pay to drive in the woods. This is just a rough plan but hopefully a start.
While you may have never seen a person drunk while riding a horse, does that mean it cannot happen? While I have not seen trees fall in the pines, I know they did because I have seen them toppled and across the paths and areas. Just because you did not see it, does not mean it did not happen? Can you agree on that point?
And while the percentage of jackass drivers to horse ones is definitely more than those who ride horses.
While I can see your point on how those 3 version of pine users do less impact on the environment concerning what they leave behind, I would like to point out the vehicles they may use to access different points to hike or kayak or canoe. Those vehicles may also deposit oils and other harmful fluids into the puddles that they enter, so grouping everyone who uses a vehicle to access the pines would be more appropriate and realistic than to group all wheelers together. And I am sure some of those canoers leave trash behind and may even submerge the trash (ie plastic bags) into the rivers. Just another point about grouping people together arbitrarily.
I agree people who are being ignorant to the pines are the problem. Not everyone who drives is doing illegal things while back there.
I am not trying to shift the blame I am trying to see if you can see the other side of the coin
Heres the deal with leaks, any vehicle can be leaking. If anything 4x4 guys don't want anything to be leaking because where oils leak, water can get in and destroy parts. A blown transmission doesnot always leak. I have seen them spew out of the dipsticks before but chances are the guy wanted to change out his fluid. How about the thousands of vehicles that have driven down regular dirt roads dripping oil? How about horses taking a shit in a puddle changing PH levels.
The only way you'll ever be happy is if people walk into the pines and park on pavement. Youre a complete waste of my time and everyone elses. I don't need you in order to work on this. There are people out there that are still in the proper mental state of health who I feel are a whole hell of a lot more help than you could ever think of being. I will continue my conversations with otherwho don't claim to talk to frogs and everything else back there. As others have said your heart may be in the right spot but you are lacking the rest. So continue on with your thing and I'll continue on with mine. I hope one day when we cross paths we will both keep walking or you will learn to speak with me like another human being.
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