Off Road Abuse of Wharton State Forest Continues

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Jason Howell said:
Tsqurd, whoever you are, I am not going to reply to such an insulting tone except to say this. I am as piney as it gets, born, bred, and I continue here, so get used to it.
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You're also fairly obnoxious, rude, condescending, and incredibly annoying. The kind of tone that tsqurd took is the same exact tone that you've taken with people who do not agree with the agenda you've been trying to shove down people's throats over the last year. You have no problem dishing it out but can't take it.
 
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Jason Howell said:
Heres' another one from May. Look how afraid they are of getting a ticket.
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That video really bothers me; it focuses the problem in a unique way. Forget the mud wallows for a moment (we all want that to end). This video makes it's well apparent they are treating our pine barrens as an amusement park even though what they are doing appears to be mostly legal (except for the drinking and that music, which really should be outlawed).

Suppose they were in a pack of 12 vehicles traveling just 10 mph, but were still yelling and blasting music. What then, what's the answer? More enforcement will not check that. What would they write on the tickets?

I support the current DEP policy, yes. And I want it to work. But for the future, how do we create standards of use that respect the forest and are compatible with a forest environment, and yet are still easily enforceable?
 
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I love this website and the vast knowledge and expertise available to anyone, for free, here. But I have personally seen incidents in the pines with 4 x 4 making doughnuts and trying to blast through deep puddles, videos on Youtube and the Jeep Jamboree website which clearly shows jeeps driving through rivers and yes, legally, driving hard through puddles on roads. I have been attacked and hammered down as well, no matter how objectively I have presented my view or asked a question. Just because the PPA is engaging in one sided advocacy of an extreme position, doesn't mean that the response needs to be as well.
 
Do you really think the response here has been one sided? This group seems to be quite diverse in how we enjoy our time in the forest and opinions here seem to run the gamut from those seeking to close the forest to those supporting open access. About the only thing I haven't seen here is anyone suggesting that nothing be done.

For the most part, the discussions here seem pretty civil given the range of opinions and the emotions involved.

Regarding my comments about Mr. Howell, Mr. Horner and the PPA - they have taken a very public position advocating for the closure of the forest. They have published articles, been quoted in news articles, write blogs etc. One has to believe putting such pieces out for public consumption will cause people to react. I am simply doing just that - sharing my opinion that their actions have demonstrated a lack of ethics.

Now if Mr. Howell wants to talk insulting, off the top of my head
-Insulting to me is continuing to show pictures of areas like Jemima Mt, High Crossing, etc, which have been closed off for years, as a reason to support the MAP - that is misleading at best, anyone in those areas is already flagrantly violating the law.
-Insulting to me is attempting to paint anyone who opposes the MAP as a monster truck driving environment hater - that is a lie and clearly is not the case.
-Insulting to me is refusing to come to the table with other other groups to protect the forest to stop the damage - the full court press on the "need" for the MAP continues, its almost like they want the damage to continue.

Back to the original post here, I don't believe Mr. Howell is coming here to simply have a discussion. I believe they are trying to lay the ground work to "prove" the DEPs current approach isn't working. For the record, it is my understanding the real enforcement push hasn't even started yet, and will take place later this summer. Regardless of the plan, things are not going to change over night, and nothing will stop someone intent on breaking the law.
 
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Its all the same old rhetoric, posting videos, coming to this site and posting about abuse, its all for a desired effect which is to start an argument in a public venue for the world to see so certain parties can claim lack of cooperation from all involved parties with the premise of complete closure to motorized access. Since the demise of the MAP there has been stepped up enforcement, a greater presence of SPP, I myself have witnessed on several occasions as have others from reading the postings here and elsewhere. Do we think this thread was started in the interest of land use or to further drive home the point we all have agreed on, there are laws being broken and the law breakers need to be stopped. In the filming of any of these videos, has anyone taken and reported a tag number? I know Jason said he reported the incident, was there a follow up from any LEO? When there is a place as large as Wharton and the wheeling (for lack of a better term) has been taking place for so long unchecked, you can’t expect an end overnight, that is like trying to end all crime in a major metro area in a months time.
 
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I don't really care about the PPA position, nor do I care about Jason Howell's post. I don't like BS... I.E. Jeep Jamboree doesn't ride through rivers. Sub compact's are just as responsible for digging up roads as 4 x 4's. Seasonal bog flodding causes road closures (which is true), not knuckleheads digging holes in big puddles (also true and which I saw personally). I am against MAP. I am for the current plan. I don't have an ax to grind or a particular position, I just want to ride throught the forest in a responsible way. Propaganda is still BS, whether it's being peddled by the PPA or the Jeep Jamboree.
 
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This is never going to end till the PPA has the pines off limits to all. Like in a previous post said certain people come here specifically to stir the pot I say ingnore the a$$holes and keep doing what were doing to shut them up eventually everyone will see who is right and who is spreading b.s. propaganda
 
bobpbx said:
That video really bothers me; it focuses the problem in a unique way. Forget the mud wallows for a moment (we all want that to end). This video makes it's well apparent they are treating our pine barrens as an amusement park even though what they are doing appears to be mostly legal (except for the drinking and that music, which really should be outlawed).

Suppose they were in a pack of 12 vehicles traveling just 10 mph, but were still yelling and blasting music. What then, what's the answer? More enforcement will not check that. What would they write on the tickets?

I support the current DEP policy, yes. And I want it to work. But for the future, how do we create standards of use that respect the forest and are compatible with a forest environment, and yet are still easily enforceable?
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I believe it is a problem that has become part of the culture about how we as Americans view the land. It seems that this is how many have been taught to interact with the landscape, as an upsized sandbox for adults with upsized toys.

Fixing the cultural side of this is going to take years of messaging and education in order to counter the messages we are getting every day from advertisements, popular culture, and the history of land use in the West. That is going to be a generational issue that will need to play out, so what do we do in the interim?

I think that the DEP made positive steps with placing additional signs, more focus on ORV offenses for State Park Police, and a reorganization of SPP districting. The question is, will that be enough?
 
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Jason Howell said:
I believe it is a problem that has become part of the culture about how we as Americans view the land. It seems that this is how many have been taught to interact with the landscape, as an upsized sandbox for adults with upsized toys.

Fixing the cultural side of this is going to take years of messaging and education in order to counter the messages we are getting every day from advertisements, popular culture, and the history of land use in the West. That is going to be a generational issue that will need to play out, so what do we do in the interim?

I think that the DEP made positive steps with placing additional signs, more focus on ORV offenses for State Park Police, and a reorganization of SPP districting. The question is, will that be enough?
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I definitely agree with your first paragraph. As to the second, I'm not sure it will work out. Where is the driving force to effect the cultural change? Americans are too diverse in thought to make that kind of change in attitude a wholesale change.

You ask, "will that be enough"? I don't know, but I am against closing long-existing roads. Joy riders should not be the cause for closing roads that we have used responsibly for decades. That's like saying if people speed on the parkway in a certain section, then close that section down. Nonsense.
 
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Piney4life said:
The white truck was not abandoned he cut the video just as he seen 2 people walking up to him watch it closely before you see the white truck.what bothers me is how he puts the video out when he knows the road is legal to be on but spins it to look like its illegal. why can't (s.e.v.) have a few roads to go on they can use rtp funds to maintain this type of road thats what it is for. as long as they stay on road.many states do this to give balance to all recreational users.they post signs letting you now what you are getting into if you go on that rd.and im not saying 1/4 mile that should be off limits.
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Fair enough regarding the white truck...but should that road be legal? Three stuck vehicles and a road that looks like a creek or even a pond...I'm guessing this is in a wetland area. Why repair a road that should never have been there in the first place?
tsqurd said:
As been stated before, people intent on breaking the law will do so. Not sure what the point of the original post is, other than, perhaps, to stir the pot? I don't think Mr. Howell is anything more than a paid agitator that has time and time again mis-represented facts and out right lied to try to push his close the forest agenda - I'd suggest not putting to much faith in anything he says.

A quick Google search of Micheal "Mike" Hickey, the youtube poster of the "Spring time" video, one will quickly see his association with the PPA and Al Horner, so it should be no surprise there is an attempt to mislead viewers in his videos.
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Regarding the initial post "off road abuse of Wharton state forest continues" the administrator(s) of this site could certainly block/delete these types of threads but for me I think its important to be reminded that this is an ongoing issue. Going forward its pointless to post older videos but anything posted after the DEP signs were installed (04/30) would seem like fair game. I support the DEP efforts and I really respect the OTNJ crowd in there outreach to the community but to maintain access "we" need to know of current damage being done and videos like this are helpful in communicating to law enforcement and DEP for hotspots and future enforcement activities/protection. It's too bad a task force like the one Lacy Townhip just put together could not occur in different areas of the Pine Barrens (such as Wharton).
 
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A forum member by the name of Mordecai posted this last year on another thread:

"Hey all, I implore everyone to remember that we are allies here and this is a dispute among friends. If we didn't have impassioned people like you all and the PPA with deep convictions, then we would have lost this place to suburbia. That fight against the wal-marts and the real-estate companies is not over and I really would like to keep this debate friendly because we need each other."

That post stuck out to me and I thought that it was a good time to post it again. For a different perspective, all of this BS wouldn't be happening if they had gone ahead and built that jetport.
 
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PineBarrens Advocate said:
Fair enough regarding the white truck...but should that road be legal? Three stuck vehicles and a road that looks like a creek or even a pond...I'm guessing this is in a wetland area. Why repair a road that should never have been there in the first place?

Regarding the initial post "off road abuse of Wharton state forest continues" the administrator(s) of this site could certainly block/delete these types of threads but for me I think its important to be reminded that this is an ongoing issue. Going forward its pointless to post older videos but anything posted after the DEP signs were installed (04/30) would seem like fair game. I support the DEP efforts and I really respect the OTNJ crowd in there outreach to the community but to maintain access "we" need to know of current damage being done and videos like this are helpful in communicating to law enforcement and DEP for hotspots and future enforcement activities/protection. It's too bad a task force like the one Lacy Townhip just put together could not occur in different areas of the Pine Barrens (such as Wharton).
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That rd has been their for at least 30+years is not new nobody made a new rd it is cherry hill rd. if you go down a road in the pines and come across a puddle like that and you make the decision to go in it then that is solely up to you.if i take my stock 4x4 and get stuck i am responsible for my actions and i must either have self recovery capabilities or i will have to call a tow truck to pull me out.hell the ppa's adventure map even tells you enter at your own risk
 
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Piney4life said:
That rd has been their for at least 30+years is not new nobody made a new rd it is cherry hill rd. if you go down a road in the pines and come across a puddle like that and you make the decision to go in it then that is solely up to you.if i take my stock 4x4 and get stuck i am responsible for my actions and i must either have self recovery capabilities or i will have to call a tow truck to pull me out.hell the ppa's adventure map even tells you enter at your own risk[/QUOTEJust because it is there does not make it right. As I am a private citizen I will leave it to the DEP and the NJPC for a determination but if this is a wetland and a state natural area (both designations have legal protections) and the road conditions are as shown in the video if it was up to me I would close it to motorized traffic (perhaps only open to hunters in season while hunting).
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Lets say that if a area is posted as a esa than no one can go in it at all no hikers mountain bikes nothing not even a foot print how do you think that would go over..pba
 
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