Closed to Mortorized Vehicles

[Ben Ruset]

All one has to do is read their forums and see where this group is going. There are posts where people say that they're concerned about the "anti-access" crowd, and you have folks like Russ saying that it's no ones intent to close down trails, and then you see a get-together where folks are posting "No Motorized Vehicles" signs all over Quarter-Mile.

I think that, to get the truth of what is happening here, someone ought to speak with the Superintendent of Wharton.

Meanwhile we can all reminisce about what it was like to be able to responsibly drive wherever we wanted without the thought that someone on a power trip was posting signs to keep us out.

 

[MuckSavage]

The signs were posted with Wharton Superintendent present and at his direction. I thought the distance from 1/4 mile was a bit extreme, but he explained that the placement was to close off access to 1/4. Also, the State Park Police had no defined area as to what was off-limits. The NJTLC has no rights to enforcement, and no special access priveleges. The sign that you see planted denoting "Winderness Area" on the way to Lower Forge....we carried it from Hampton. Also, the Superintendant collected all of the signs at the end of the day. If it's observed that any of the signs are torn down, it's to be reprted to WSF.

 

[manumuskin]

There's always that subtext isn't there? It's the "public" that needs to be kept out. Once they have been placed properly at arms length the connected and elite have all the access they want. Still, this was inevitable, and I would say inevitably the rest of the woods will follow as the various governments can deal with the rights of way issues.

However I can't join your criticism of TNC (disclosure, my brother works for them in DC). What you've described is no more or less than the practice of any private land owner, and overall I can't fault their approach to preservation. If you want to preserve land... buy it! Beats the heck out of lobbying Congress to use our tax dollars to buy it.

I just fail to understand why their vehicles do not damage the land and the rest of ours do.Preserve it to me means keep out all vehicles.With the TNC I guess it isn't technically our land though we are allowed to use it since they get a tax break for allowing us to but with Wharton forest,that is OUR land and if we can't drive it the rangers and anyone else should not be allowed to either.In West virginias monongahela national Forest when they shut old logging roads down so an area can become wilderness they shut it down period.When they block a road they do it with boulders on the mountainsides and you are not going around,over ,under or through it with a vehicle.I know thats impossible to do in the barrens.For state land anyway I still think if we can't drive the authority guys shouldn't either except in emergencies like rescue or fire fighting to save lives and property.Give me wilderness or leave me the hell alone is my motto.
Al

 

[manumuskin]

I have a 50 mile woods route I occasionally drive,usually on full moon nights with my wife and sometimes Whip.Haven't done it in a couple years now.This route is primarily in Wharton and does not touch or cross any blacktop roads.It is semi circular and very winding and does not repeat itself.It takes about 4 hours to drive.About a mile and a half of this route is closed off on this map.I can't take this part in very wet weather anyway because of one questioanble hole i may bottom out in but under normal conditions it's okay.Without a barricade my next four hour trip i will be using the road.They can guess when that will be.I work rotating shift with rotating days off.Go ahead,catch me.

 

[MarkBNJ]

The signs were posted with Wharton Superintendent present and at his direction. I thought the distance from 1/4 mile was a bit extreme, but he explained that the placement was to close off access to 1/4. Also, the State Park Police had no defined area as to what was off-limits. The NJTLC has no rights to enforcement, and no special access priveleges. The sign that you see planted denoting "Winderness Area" on the way to Lower Forge....we carried it from Hampton. Also, the Superintendant collected all of the signs at the end of the day. If it's observed that any of the signs are torn down, it's to be reprted to WSF.

I think it would have been much more effective for the authorities to impound a couple of trucks. Now, as the others have said, we're all being punished.

 

[devilstoy]

i dont understand why everyone is so mad , i am a member of njtlc and was personally out there sunday hanging signs , i agree the area was a little over extended from 1/4 mile itself but rob stated that there is other sensitive areas with in that region that was posted , a lot of people on here complain about the damage but no one wants to do anything and now your bashing the progress that has been taking , if you dont like it then join a few njtlc meetings and voice your opinion and try to help out , we have no "special" access to areas that are posted , park police are the only ones legal to drive it and check on the internal area in a vehicle , its funny now all of a sudden everyone is complaining about not being able to drive areas when before everyone thought they should be shut down to motor vehicle activity , and before , people complained about a lifted truck tearing up a trail , but why be prejustice towards lifted vehicles when theres plenty of everyday vehicles causeing the same amount of damage, so to fix the problem its shut down to all motor vehicles to prevent arguing and who can and can't/should'nt drive down the trails it wouldnt be fair now if signs were posted saying no lifted vehicles or hunters and nature lovers only ? its just proof that people will complain about anything they can no matter what the situation at hand is

 

[skip3]

i dont understand why everyone is so mad , i am a member of njtlc and was personally out there sunday hanging signs , i agree the area was a little over extended from 1/4 mile itself but rob stated that there is other sensitive areas with in that region that was posted , a lot of people on here complain about the damage but no one wants to do anything and now your bashing the progress that has been taking , if you dont like it then join a few njtlc meetings and voice your opinion and try to help out , we have no "special" access to areas that are posted , park police are the only ones legal to drive it and check on the internal area in a vehicle , its funny now all of a sudden everyone is complaining about not being able to drive areas when before everyone thought they should be shut down to motor vehicle activity , and before , people complained about a lifted truck tearing up a trail , but why be prejustice towards lifted vehicles when theres plenty of everyday vehicles causeing the same amount of damage, so to fix the problem its shut down to all motor vehicles to prevent arguing and who can and can't/should'nt drive down the trails it wouldnt be fair now if signs were posted saying no lifted vehicles or hunters and nature lovers only ? its just proof that people will complain about anything they can no matter what the situation at hand is

It is not the individual action, it is the direction of the action. In this country we loose freedoms in very small increments. It sometimes takes generations to see the full extent, I don't want to be telling my granddaughter about the days when we could WALK in the woods.....

 

[dogg57]

Devilstoy said"its funny now all of a sudden everyone is complaining about not being able to drive areas when before everyone thought they should be shut down to motor vehicle activity , and before , people complained about" Thats Funny I never said that So don't say everyone

 

[46er]

....a lot of people on here complain about the damage but no one wants to do anything and now your bashing the progress that has been taking

My recollection is that many folks wanted something to be done about, many felt enforcement of the existing regulations and definitions is what should have been done. Closing off the entire area to everyone does not resolve the problem, just moves it, and creates yet another issue.

What hasn't been made clear is where did the idea to close off the area come from, the state or the trails group? I could not find anything regarding how the decision came to be.

 

[MuckSavage]

The Superintendant of WSF directed & witnessed the placement of each sign.

 

[manumuskin]

This is a reply somewhat to Devilstoy but with info pertinent to all.
I have never actually been to quarter mile.I have been within a quarter mile of quarter mile (pun intended) but it's the truth.I have explored the large spung/ponds north of the tracks but never crossed the tracks since i was driving and my four wheel suzuki does nopt have track jumping clearances.It is good in the woods but by no means an aqua truck.I just birds eyed quarter mile which i never did before just now.These images are several years old and I must say they have tore hell out of the area.As a matter of fact if you swivel the image so your looking from the east i believe there is a truck stuck in a lake with the doors open in the photo.What in the name of who knows what are they doing there?That looks like country that would make the PBX's best bushwackers take a deep and meditative breath.I do agree that all traffic there should cease by auto that is.It should have never started.One reason besides the tracks I didn't proceed was because the topos and aerials clearly scream SWAMP!!!.Now my B&%$h and moan is with the north south trending road visible in the eastern half of the map on this thread.This road extends from the old Tuckerton pike just south of High crossing south for several miles to Penn Swamp Branch where it joins the road heading east from Quaker bRIDGE TO mOUNT OR tYLERTOWN ,WHICHEVER WAY YOU MAY WANT TO GO. Sorry about the caps.two fingered typist here.Now I use that road every so often to actually get from poiunt A to point B with no intention of going anywhere near quarter mile.That road only has one wet area not counting wet season puddles along it's whole length and that is the small swamp just south of it's northern end.That crossing is solid sand on the right but in wet weather it can get deep.If you stray two far left you take your good reputation in your hands at least with a non scuba truck you do.Now if this was a new road I might say okay it should never have been put there but if you surf Historical aerials .com that road has been there since at least 1931.That is 80 years for the mathematically challenged.Not saying you are Devistoy.That is an established road and no doubt predates the creation of the state forest.The only other road visible in the immediate vicinity is the tuckerton pike which we know is way old. and of course the tracks and the east west route from hampton furnace to tulpehocken swamp.So what have we been tearing up recently that wasn't tore up before my grandmother was born?I also occasionally drive as close as I dar to mannis duck pond on occasion but no truck is driving across the bottom of that anyway.Two tight if I remember correctly.Now i do not mind the walk to mannis at all from the main road from lower forge to the pike (forget the name of that road all the time).I think your position on closing roads may not be all bad but closing down old ,established roads that predate the state forest is extreme.Dead end roads might not be a bad idea.maybe new roads established past a certain date which would require research into their history which is never a bad thing just for the knowledge.Anyway think on it.I'm not much on public meetings.The only public speech I'm capable of once pissed off is less then flowery unless of course skunk cabbage is a flower which i believe it is so i wouldn't be a good candidate for public appearances and of course there is always "The Face" which I cannot control.In any case I will be quite willing to test anyones authority to stop me on that road.Court cases are not new to me and I am smart enough to let the lawyer do the talking so someday soon I'll be heading north or south on one of my favorite "wait a minute" roads.
Al

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

During last summer there were several threads and posts on this forum that got completely out of hand in reference to this very subject, my postings included. The subject here is not ¼ mile, while most that are posting and reading this are assuming the subject is the real subject here is closure. The question we should be asking ourselves is how did it come to this and why did we let it go this far? We all asked that something be done with this and other areas, and now that it is done we don’t like it because some feel it was too extreme. The NJTLC meetings were posted on this site and theirs and all were welcome to attend. I’m thinking by the amount of surprised faces (or posts) here not many of us did, me included. I will be attending future meetings, however. During the summer I was asked several questions on and off this forum by members and non members in reference to my “wheeling” status. While I use Wharton for a lot of recreational purposes, with and without my truck, I do not feel as if I can drive where ever I please without impunity, nor to I “cut my own roads” through the woods where there aren’t any. There are also several ideas on what and where and “established” road is and I refuse to rebut or even argue the point as I feel it is moot because if there are 10 people, there are 10 opinions and we all know what opinions are like! Some will say the SPP and the Wharton Officials can tell what the roadways are but that is a matter of opinion as well. What it will come to is that it will not matter if a road was established in the 1700’s or 17 minutes ago, when it is abused it will be closed to all. Do I know this for a fact, no; it is pure speculation of things to come but in light of recent events it appears to be true. If you are all as concerned about closure, go to a meeting as Nick (devils toy) suggested. If you have trouble speaking in public forum have someone carry your concerns to the meeting, it is imperative that all ideas and opinions are heard not just those of a select few.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Those of you who were concerned about the size of the area that they were closing should have gotten in your trucks and left, and let the rangers put up the signs themselves.

But, by following along and nailing signs up your actions state that you agree with the closures.

Remember, this is OUR land. The folks at Wharton just manage it for us. It's not really their right to decide without some sort of public process what can and can not be open for access. Since the only thread on the NJTLC forum about this is the one where they talk about putting the signs up, it looks like there's pretty much little to no transparency or accountability to the public in this. "Just attend the meetings" doesn't cut it.

 

[46er]

The Superintendant of WSF directed & witnessed the placement of each sign.

Thanks Muck, but that's not exactly what I was asking.

....where did the idea to close off the area come from, the state or the trails group?

 

[Boyd]

....where did the idea to close off the area come from, the state or the trails group?

I think the frogs told them to do it...

 

[manumuskin]

I'm not very good with signs.Ask Whip

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

Those of you who were concerned about the size of the area that they were closing should have gotten in your trucks and left, and let the rangers put up the signs themselves.

But, by following along and nailing signs up your actions state that you agree with the closures.

Remember, this is OUR land. The folks at Wharton just manage it for us. It's not really their right to decide without some sort of public process what can and can not be open for access. Since the only thread on the NJTLC forum about this is the one where they talk about putting the signs up, it looks like there's pretty much little to no transparency or accountability to the public in this. "Just attend the meetings" doesn't cut it.

Let's be clear on one thing, I do not in any way support closure of any kind. Second the suggestion of going to a meeting is merely that, a suggestion. If the folks at Wharton manage "our" land and we have no input on how, what do we expect to happen?

 

[Boyd]

it looks like there's pretty much little to no transparency or accountability to the public in this. "Just attend the meetings" doesn't cut it.

Well said Ben. I am also surprised that a major action like this didn't include any announcement beforehand. And even now there is no map of the "forbidden zone" and no information about closures on the NJDEP website (that I can find). Seems kind of sneaky to me.

I have not yet formed a final opinion yet, but I don't like the way it was handled. If nothing else, the "trail lovers" have obviously alienated a lot of people who might have otherwise been supportive of some kind of action to stop the abuse in that area.

Nice job.

 

[manumuskin]

I advocate a "Drive Thru" not a "Dribe BY" but a drive thru.Taking a tip from Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" here.Everyone on this site that agrees with either no closure or you've closed too much line up at Quaker Bridge or High Crossing and do a stinkin Drive Through.I'll lead.
Al
PS
I'll leave "The Face" home if you like.

 

[Trailhead00]

Just wanted to say that I joined the NJTLC for the reason that I felt they might represent what I believe in the most. If I felt like the PPA was doing it I would send them money, but they do not get any from me. The idea is to preserve open space and to make sure future generations get to enjoy the pines like we do. The group is new and there will definitely be a teething period but I think the group thinks along the same lines as many members here.

1/4 mile has been a lightning rod for debate and this seemed to be the most pressing issue. It's good that the superintendent of Wharton has acknowledged the group in it's infancy and is willing to work with us. I think it's going to be a little give and take. I was afraid if nothing was done about 1/4 mile, who knows what would be closed down, it could be worse. One thing I will not stand for is excessive closure to the state forests, I agree with much of what Ben has to say and if too many roads were closed off to 1/4 mile I will state my opinion and my unhappiness towards it. I will not tolerate loss of access to land that is rightfully ours.

This is a starting point and who knows, maybe it will push these big trucks somewhere else, maybe they will just rip down the signs, who knows, but at least something is being done. Anyone who knows me knows I am very pro motorized access and very pro ATV use. I am hoping down the road that everyone stays the course and keeps these areas open.

I did ask for a map to show which areas were closed off which will help this discussion immensely.