I think the frogs told them to do it...
And here I thought they were still sleeping in the mud
Closed to Mortorized Vehicles
- Thread starter ecampbell
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And here I thought they were still sleeping in the mud
All great points, didn't think to check closures on NJDEP and agreeably sneaky indeed. The point I was trying to get across with the meetings is exactly what you and Ben are saying, however, it appears as NJTLC is steering at this point. I think there should be more involvment from the public and from this site as well. As we all know, this site and it's members are well respected in all communities that involve themselves in the pines. I'm not here to debate anyone on this subject, just to raise questions and promote awareness of what is happening and the direction it is going.
I think we're talking sense here
There is no need to block off long established through routes to keep people out of quarter mile.If the road doesn't lead you straight to quarter mile then leave it alone.I have driven sout to the tracks several times and like being able to go that far to get to the pond north of the tracks but that road is very wet and semi swamp in places so yeah I don't mind staying on hampton gate road which by the way can be quite nasty in spots itself but I don't want it closed,it's a through road.I'm all for keeping vehicles out of swamps and spungs.there are plenty of old gravel pits to four wheel in just stay out of Tiger salamander breeding pools in jan thru June
If this trend continues what is next?Tuckerton stage route?When heading from Penn swamp area to High crossing area that road that is signed off is thee way to go.It has nothing to do with Quarter mile.If there are roads which i don't see any obvious ones on the aerials then sign those off.Leave the long roads be.Al
I think we're talking sense here
There is no need to block off long established through routes to keep people out of quarter mile.If the road doesn't lead you straight to quarter mile then leave it alone.I have driven sout to the tracks several times and like being able to go that far to get to the pond north of the tracks but that road is very wet and semi swamp in places so yeah I don't mind staying on hampton gate road which by the way can be quite nasty in spots itself but I don't want it closed,it's a through road.I'm all for keeping vehicles out of swamps and spungs.there are plenty of old gravel pits to four wheel in just stay out of Tiger salamander breeding pools in jan thru June
Al
Exactly!!
Hi Everyone... I haven’t been on this board in years, so I had to re-register.
I am the NJTLC representative from the Enduro/Motorcycle community and I just wanted to clarify the issues to date.
Portions of 1/4 mile have been marked ‘NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES’ several times over the past 20+ years. The signs are typically ripped down within weeks and nothing changes. Actually if you look at the area time-lapse on google earth - it has gotten exponentially worse. Make no mistake, this is absolutely an enforcement issue and has been for decades.
So how did we get here?
Step 1: Illegal offroad damage expanded unchecked at 1/4 mile with little to no enforcement despite being previously posted off limits.
Step 2: The PPA and similar organizations started a rather ugly publicity campaign (NJN, AC Press, etc) citing 1/4 mile as justification for closures and policy changes against motorized access.
Step 3: NJTLC formed with representatives from many recreational organizations coming together to start a volunteer initiative, avoid negative policy changes, and ultimately prevent FUTURE closures.
Step 4: Superintendent Rob Auermuller’s FIRST project for the organization was to post signage to reinforce the existing closure of the 1/4 mile area. Auermuller’s expanded area of closure was his agenda and his alone. If you have concerns, he is the person to contact. NJTLC is simply volunteer labor.
NJTLC has no additional access or enforcement rights. I personally don’t like the larger closure area and I was not posting signs due to previous obligations to the East Coast Enduro Association.
I think new signage in the immediate 1/4 mile area and proper enforcement of the EXISTING rules/regs would have been more than sufficient... but Rob Auermuller feels different and he is the current state appointed Superintendent. If you are concerned come to a meeting. If you have an issue with where the lines are drawn... talk to Auermuller, someone else within the state, or your local representatives.
I am very hopeful that this organization will be seated with a more **positive** agenda from here on out and actually be utilized to improve public land... but only time and involvement of those that are concerned will determine what happens.
I am the NJTLC representative from the Enduro/Motorcycle community and I just wanted to clarify the issues to date.
Portions of 1/4 mile have been marked ‘NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES’ several times over the past 20+ years. The signs are typically ripped down within weeks and nothing changes. Actually if you look at the area time-lapse on google earth - it has gotten exponentially worse. Make no mistake, this is absolutely an enforcement issue and has been for decades.
So how did we get here?
Step 1: Illegal offroad damage expanded unchecked at 1/4 mile with little to no enforcement despite being previously posted off limits.
Step 2: The PPA and similar organizations started a rather ugly publicity campaign (NJN, AC Press, etc) citing 1/4 mile as justification for closures and policy changes against motorized access.
Step 3: NJTLC formed with representatives from many recreational organizations coming together to start a volunteer initiative, avoid negative policy changes, and ultimately prevent FUTURE closures.
Step 4: Superintendent Rob Auermuller’s FIRST project for the organization was to post signage to reinforce the existing closure of the 1/4 mile area. Auermuller’s expanded area of closure was his agenda and his alone. If you have concerns, he is the person to contact. NJTLC is simply volunteer labor.
NJTLC has no additional access or enforcement rights. I personally don’t like the larger closure area and I was not posting signs due to previous obligations to the East Coast Enduro Association.
I think new signage in the immediate 1/4 mile area and proper enforcement of the EXISTING rules/regs would have been more than sufficient... but Rob Auermuller feels different and he is the current state appointed Superintendent. If you are concerned come to a meeting. If you have an issue with where the lines are drawn... talk to Auermuller, someone else within the state, or your local representatives.
I am very hopeful that this organization will be seated with a more **positive** agenda from here on out and actually be utilized to improve public land... but only time and involvement of those that are concerned will determine what happens.
Good information, Greg. Very clear and to the point. Especially point #4. I will be expressing my concerns to Rob Auermuller directly (or directly as I can).
Jeff
Who appoints the Superintendents and who are the accountable to? Is there any reason that they would really care what the public has to say?
A couple of points mentioned here need to be clarified. First, a lot of people here had written about damage in the pines. I've written about it here and on my blog, and have gone out of my way to photograph damage and offenders when I can. I'm offended a little by the tone of "Well, you guys all complained and now we're doing something and you're still bitching."
One problem is nobody knew who "we" was meant to represent. When it was presented to me NJTLC was just a group of people getting together to try and dialogue with the offroad community and find ways to prevent the woods getting shut down. Now all of a sudden, whoa, they seem to have influence. A lot of people here have been involved in pines politics and regulation for years (list doesn't include me), and since I guess they weren't asked their opinions on this it probably seemed like a shock. Where's this coming from? If in fact NJTLC was "volunteer labor"... whatever. They have to decide what they support and what they don't.
So, speaking for myself: I want the damage to stop. I particularly want the people who cause it, especially the ones who come from out of state in their mudder convoys, to feel some pain for tearing up the woods. I'd like a few of them to have to ride home with a buddy while their trucks stay at Batsto for auction. It's only natural. I'm human, and when I see the wall being torn down at Friendship I think a good ass-kicking of some kind is in order.
If a closure is needed to "heal" 1/4 Mile, and it's temporary, then fine. Problem is, the jerks who do this stuff, for whom the woods are primarily a place to vent their overabundance of teenage hormones, aren't going to give two craps about the signs, or the restrictions, or the rest of the un-posted forest. We all know that. So what will the result be when this doesn't "work"? When the essential dynamic doesn't change? How much more are they going to want to close?
Personally, I would bet that they will close it all.
One problem is nobody knew who "we" was meant to represent. When it was presented to me NJTLC was just a group of people getting together to try and dialogue with the offroad community and find ways to prevent the woods getting shut down. Now all of a sudden, whoa, they seem to have influence. A lot of people here have been involved in pines politics and regulation for years (list doesn't include me), and since I guess they weren't asked their opinions on this it probably seemed like a shock. Where's this coming from? If in fact NJTLC was "volunteer labor"... whatever. They have to decide what they support and what they don't.
So, speaking for myself: I want the damage to stop. I particularly want the people who cause it, especially the ones who come from out of state in their mudder convoys, to feel some pain for tearing up the woods. I'd like a few of them to have to ride home with a buddy while their trucks stay at Batsto for auction. It's only natural. I'm human, and when I see the wall being torn down at Friendship I think a good ass-kicking of some kind is in order.
If a closure is needed to "heal" 1/4 Mile, and it's temporary, then fine. Problem is, the jerks who do this stuff, for whom the woods are primarily a place to vent their overabundance of teenage hormones, aren't going to give two craps about the signs, or the restrictions, or the rest of the un-posted forest. We all know that. So what will the result be when this doesn't "work"? When the essential dynamic doesn't change? How much more are they going to want to close?
Personally, I would bet that they will close it all.
Al, I think you made a great suggestion. If a road doesn't directly lead to the area of concern keep the main road open and post signage in the woods and access points on the closed side of the road. Sort of like if the area ran alongside rt.206 you wouldn't shut down the highway.
The roads blocked pretty much lead to and only to 1/4 mile or sensitive wet lands area , I used drive all the time to the rail road tracks to the north side of 1/4 mile and hike from there but now I can't do that but it's ok everyone is gonna have to make some sacrifices if we want to keep Wharton open , I'm really surprised that people on this forum are bitching more about the road closures then anyone on an off road forum
I think an important point to clarify is that NJTLC was essentially started by a group of responsible 'affiliated' motorized recreation enthusiasts that banded together to open a dialogue among the various groups and it expanded from there.... not the other way around. Despite various claims... it was a positive effort started by Jeep guys that felt they were getting unfairly blamed for damage by outlaws and were justifiably in fear of losing their public land rights due to vague, irresponsible journalism and false accusations.
The primary concern being that the illegal activity and damage at 1/4 mile was being used to target the interests of the organized and responsible clubs. I'm still not sure why responsible users were targeted rather than simply calling for proper enforcement of existing rules? But what's done is done.
While NJTLC members may be proud of their volunteer work, they are not happy that they are being asked to close ANY public land. This closure, while opposite the purpose of the club, is a show of responsibility, good faith, and the only way to address a situation that has been neglected by the State of New Jersey. I'm absolutely certain we all wish the immediate area of 1/4 mile had been properly patrolled by the State Park Police back 20 years ago when it was FIRST posted off limits.
A positive of NJTLC so far is that it has, in fact, started to opened up communication among groups that all enjoy the same area but are involved in different forms of recreation. Hopefully in the future the issues will be better understood and problems can actually be directly addressed rather than a bunch of responsible groups scrambling to blame each other and get the target off their own back (which seemed to happen alot in the past).
The actual responsibility for the boundaries of this project rests entirely on Auermuller and the responsibility for enforcing the lines that are being drawn rests entirely on the State Park Police.
I understands Auermuller's thought process about closing CERTAIN roads leading TO 1/4 mile... but I think without proper announcements, education, and (of course) enforcement after-the-fact - it may send the wrong message. Of course, all three of those issues come with a price tag - which is why volunteers are being utilized. This is New Jer$ey afterall.
No doubt, in the very near future we will ALL need to get involved to protect our rights. This is not the only possible targetted closure that has been mentioned by the decision makers. I'm sure we are all aware of Jemima and I'm sure new spots will spring up if this closure shows any measure of success. I fear new or expanded closures as a band-aide for lack of proper enforcement.
Hopefully the NJTLC will not develop an unfair reputation as the harbinger of bad news. We need people involved and advocating for their rights to prevent this from being a vicious cycle. While this first project may have set the wrong tone - I'm still very much hopeful that this organization is the right format to protect our interests and improve our experiences on public land.
But no one is thinking of the fact that even tho noone was ever allowed at 1/4 mile it was never legally posted and now that is it gives the proper authority reason to ticket people beyond the boundary thats been posted , just because your back there in a stock vehicle taking pictures it's doesn't mean if you see a lifted truck he's back there to tear things up he might just be going back there to enjoy the area just as much and anyone else , so in that matter that's why it's closed to all motor vehicle traffic
Insightful information into what the coalition is trying to accomplish. I think closure is the last thing anyone wants, but as stated get involved.
On the contrary, it WAS legally posted 'No Motor Vehicles' on the main road that parallels the railroad tracks (back when it was just a SMALL mess and a MINOR eyesore). First by the old-style engraved wooden signs in the 90's and then by the white paper signs about 5 years later. I haven't looked to see if the originals are still there, I avoid the area so as not to be associated with it... last time I was there I barely recognized it due to all the damage.
I had no involvement with the posting of the older signs - but I saw them with my own eyes. I have no idea what, if any, records were kept of those management attempts.
That said, Auermuller didn't see to know that this has been tried before by his predecessors. This was his plan for managing a historically abused area.
Old Halfway has been prominently posted for years. I don't know if the restrictions have lessened the overall amount of damage, but by the looks of the place I'd guess not.
I understand you have to catch a few of these guys in the act. I'm no expert but I think that for someone who isn't a morally-guided law-abider, obedience probably comes down to an evaluation of risk vs. reward. If there's a low risk of getting caught because there aren't enough rangers, then the penalty when you are caught has to be severe. As an absurd example, I assume that the death penalty for getting caught driving in a swamp would be an effective deterrent if it were applied once or twice. More in the realm of practical reality, a couple of weekends with a hired chopper and some trucks on the ground, resulting in a few rigs getting seized and sold off, might very well have a similar impact. That kind of enforcement would be taken seriously, and would be a serious statement that the people of NJ will actively protect their public lands from abuse. If the law isn't there to support such action then we should address that, rather than throwing up boundaries that will only be respected by the people who aren't a problem.
i agree to an extent , the rangers do need to go back on a sat night at midnight with some serious force and ticket everyone , and possably with that $10,000 enviremental fine the rumors will spread quite fast and could possably keep people permantly out of those area's with those type of risk's , theres always going to people who dont care about signs and always think tey will never get caught , but there is also a good amount of people who dont neccasraly respect the signs but fear them and realize its not worth getting caught
To put it bluntly:
The question of enforcement has been posed several times... I haven't heard a satisfying answer yet. The resources simply aren't there IMHO. What most concerns me about that is that there ALWAYS seem to be people AGAINST motorized access looking for permission to write down tag numbers, take pictures, look for inspection stickers - blah, blah, blah. Which are simply things I don't feel comfortable with volunteers getting involved with and I don't think anyone will benefit from volunteer police. The Pine Barrens already has it's own set of vigilante nut-jobs.
Again - that is why we need people to stand up for their rights and lead by example.
The other option: See something blantantly wrong? Call the DEP hotline... you'll never speak to anyone or hear back.
The question of enforcement has been posed several times... I haven't heard a satisfying answer yet. The resources simply aren't there IMHO. What most concerns me about that is that there ALWAYS seem to be people AGAINST motorized access looking for permission to write down tag numbers, take pictures, look for inspection stickers - blah, blah, blah. Which are simply things I don't feel comfortable with volunteers getting involved with and I don't think anyone will benefit from volunteer police. The Pine Barrens already has it's own set of vigilante nut-jobs.
Again - that is why we need people to stand up for their rights and lead by example.
The other option: See something blantantly wrong? Call the DEP hotline... you'll never speak to anyone or hear back.
if you dont wanna take part to volunteer your actions then dont complain about the way things are being handled . just saying....
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