Guess Who ?

RednekF350

Piney
Feb 20, 2004
4,238
1,709
1,093
Pestletown, N.J.
Looks like the ecology was being destroyed from the very beginnings. It sure hasn't stopped.
Well, Mr. Horner, I guess that's a "No" answer as to whether or not your were around long before there were enduros.

By the way, the "ecology" wasn't being destroyed in the photo I posted. It was merely a picture of a very tough young man on a Harley-Davidson crossing a stream in the middle of literally thousands of acres of woods. Within hours his tracks would be erased by wind-blown sand.

That man was lucky enough to have lived to be 92 years old and he was dear friend of mine. Bill Schemel loved the Pines and gave back to the environment in ways you wouldn't understand because they involved wise, conservative USE of the resources of the Pines, not glass bubble preservation.

Scott Smith
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,308
1,097
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
At least I am proud to use my real name, not like most of the people here that have anonymous names. Does everyone dislike their names or is worried someone will recognize them on the street or in the woods? Perhaps the next time I'll attempt to log in as Pine Needle Joey or maybe My Truck Has Bigger Tires Than Your or something really cool like that.
How's the weather up in your ivory tower?
 

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
166
51
28
Atco
I have been travelling and exploring the Pines for over 20 years and have taken out trash and called into the DEP when needed. I have seen abuse of the forest unfortunately, but I still feel that when you mess with the economics of a geographical area, you can expect some negative attention. I think that you are messing with those fathers, mothers and kids that were looking forward to the event and spent time and money to prepare for the event. I think there are fathers, mothers and kids that would have benefited from the people coming to the area and spending money at their business. Postponing or cancelling the event makes it that much harder for those families to afford to come back for that event.

And those families deserve to be able to use the forest too, don’t you think?

I would think that if someone negatively affected the cash flow at the Pinelands Adventure that they would be mad about that and would want answers to why it happened. And if it was the same person causing the negative cash flow, they would fire that person.

You would think with all the collusion between the PPA and Rob, that they would not allow him to be the head person to run the Wharton tract again. I can understand like minded individuals having a common goal but the common goal here is that anyone who does not agree with their thought process is wrong. That everyone else that uses the forest is misusing or abusing it. I disagree with that because I can drive out there all day and not do anything illegal or abuse the forest. I do need to get out and walk around more.

As far as joining the PPA in a cleanup effort, I feel that it would be beneficial to the forest, but also feel there is an angle that will solely support the PPA and their efforts to smear other groups who use the forest. I will continue assisting where I can and decide which OTHER groups I will help clean up the forest with.

I would love to see the PPA put the same efforts in to stopping the Pinelands Commission from allowing more unnecessary buildings to be built in the Pines. Those efforts will assist the ecology and preserve the Pines more so, in my opinion.

Being perceived as a bully does not help your cause.
 

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
166
51
28
Atco
Also, I am just using a screen name that is a nickname that friends in my group gave me. I am not hiding behind it, but I am not going to give you my name because I believe there is some baiting being done by you Al. Baiting to get real names, so maybe you, or your minions, can search out their FB or IG accounts to see what type of pictures they have on there of them abusing the forest. Just my 2 cents.
 

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
166
51
28
Atco
Then you must be well into your 90's since the first Sandy Lane was run in 1934. How old were you then ?
This my late friend Bill Schemel in the mid-1940's crossing the Sleeper Branch behind Batsto. This was a sanctioned enduro event and you can see his time card on the handlebars.

Have you really been around "a lot longer" than that ? Somehow I doubt it.
View attachment 11691

I am not sure how this is worse than driving an Escape thru a puddle to get to a location to take a picture to sell.
 

46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
8,384
1,875
1,093
Coastal NJ
Well said PopeofthePines. One only needs to take a look at the PPA's financials to see what it is all about. When their executive director consumes about 7% of their administrative expenses, it would appear he made a good decision leaving DC. I could find no record how his compensation is determined, nor how the executive director is determined, but he has held the position since 1998 according to their web site. It is not clear if there are any other paid positions in their staff or trustee's.

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=7123
 

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
166
51
28
Atco
Well said PopeofthePines. One only needs to take a look at the PPA's financials to see what it is all about. When their executive director consumes about 7% of their administrative expenses, it would appear he made a good decision leaving DC. I could find no record how his compensation is determined, nor how the executive director is determined, but he has held the position since 1998 according to their web site. It is not clear if there are any other paid positions in their staff or trustee's.

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=7123

Thank you 46er. Thank you for the information. I did not know that. And always remember that a nonprofit just means that there is no profit showing on the books by the end of the fiscal year. I am sure there are more paid positions in the PPA.
 

old jersey girl

Explorer
Jul 26, 2017
179
50
28
south nj near Delaware bayshore
The re-schedule request was made by Parks and Forest. Scream at them. Does no one care about the rest of the public that wants to use the forest? This forest does not just belong to one group, it belongs to all the citizens of NJ. Stop being so selfish. After years of rubber-stamping these events, the DEP has come to realize that in order to save our forest that they have to manage the roads so everyone can use them. Not one person here has it right. You act like a bunch of childish old farts.
As I am officially an old fart, I hope to remain "childish" to my last bitching breath.
Childish in my assumption that everyone has a story, a valid point of view, and a right to tromp, rev, or hunt in the woods in ways respectfull of others, both human and non-human critters.

Please moderate your tone and listen to the guys who have been in these woods for decades.
 
Quotes from Al Horner copied from the posts in this thread, my comments are inline:

“Does no one care about the rest of the public that wants to use the forest?”
Obviously the PPA went behind the public's back to protect them by blocking roads with little brown signs

“This forest does not just belong to one group, it belongs to all the citizens of NJ”
Practice what you preach

“Stop being so selfish.”
Look at yourself

“DEP has come to realize that in order to save our forest that they have to manage the roads”
DEP not PPA,

“Please think about the other people you don't know and are not part of this round robin forum before you make judgments.”
How many ECEA members do you know? I bet you don't know. I know several PPA members. Lets not make snap judgements on who you think are good stewards and who are not. How many other people did you think of when you were blocking roads and advocating closure?


“they have children, horses, mothers and fathers, and pets that all enjoy the woods”
So do people in jeeps, trucks and on motorcycles, OMG Al, we are just like you....not in a million years

“Perhaps, off-roaders should just find a place where they will be happy, a place that is theirs, all there own, purchased with their money.”
This is the capper here, what makes you think that this is a positive thing to say? perhaps photographers should buy a parcel of land to take pictures? (apologies to other photographers) this is the most ignorant one sided statement I have seen in the last several years of anti-offroading crap that has unfortunately been posted on these forms and it keeps coming back. A truck, jeep or bike has as much right as you do to travel the SF roads without question, unless they happen to step outside of the law which I whole heartedly agree needs to stop. Truth is, I see one childish old fart here, one that didn't get his way and continues to bitch and moan instead of extending a hand to shake, only shakes a fist.
Thanks Al!

My Edit for AL, Joe Shinn
“Perhaps, off-roaders should just find a place where they will be happy, a place that is theirs, all there own, purchased with their money.”
This is the capper here, What do you find so offensive here??? In most states in the NE, there is no free ride on State Forest and WMA lands, it is forbidden except on designated areas. Many off-road groups have purchased old strip mines and logged over timbered land and do their thing there. If you want to ride roughshod over the land in a machine made to conquer the land it should be done on private land, not the land of the peoples. Don't give that normal crap answer about being a tax payee too, because that doesn't hold muster.
 

Jon Holcombe

Explorer
Dec 1, 2015
675
1,242
93
Medford
If you want to ride roughshod over the land in a machine made to conquer the land it should be done on private land, not the land of the peoples. Don't give that normal crap answer about being a tax payee too, because that doesn't hold muster.
Al, I bought your book. You have pictures of the Mullica at Locks Bridge, the Oswego River and Friendship. Are you telling us that you parked on Rt. 206 and Rt. 679, and hiked in with photo backpack and tripod in the dark to get your beautiful sunrise shots? Those areas are miles into the woods.

Or did you drive into Wharton Forest in a "machine made to conquer the land"?

Come clean here, your position is more than a little hypocritical.
 
Al, like you I am a photographer.

What I cannot seem to understand is how closing many of the roads will stop the knuckleheads from going "off-road" (as in, into the woods, off the legal sand roads). Like you, I want access to the forest and drive legally. Not into spungs, or marsh, or rivers.

There are a lot of roads that are often impassable, but it appears to me that a lot of the water is seasonal or from nearby bogs. Park Police have to stop the idiots from going into wetlands, and Wharton needs a bigger budget for road repair. I think you are assigning blame where it really does not belong. The prominent posters on this forum have the deepest respect for the pinelands. Their knowledge of the history and geography is far greater than any ranger at Batsto or anyone at the DEP.

Attacking people because they have screen names is not making you any friends.
Your first statement can be handled with a map of the every State Forest and Wildlife Management Area that allows motorized vehicles to operate. The map will show what areas are permissible to drive a vehicle on and restrict the way the roads are used and the speed limits. There should also be permitted entry to posted areas for special purposes like hunting and fishing and the none damaging enjoyment. With that, you have a clear chart of where to go and not to go and the Park Police and WMA Conservation Officers have a clear mandate so they can cite people in violation of the rules. Also, everyone will have to use the same roads and then there will be more eyes on mudding, etc. Oh, and people will have to hike more....it is good for your health.
The roads are impassable because they have been overused in a big way with lots of land conquering vehicles, that is what monster trucks, over-equipped 4x4's (some look like they are looking for the Serengeti) and most dirt bikes are. It is no fun running them in normal conditions they weren't made for that and that is why they are purchased in the first place. An entire industry has been built around using these vehicles in the Pinelands, Wharton in particular. Many people have purchased these machines just for that purpose. There is a group right now that runs 25 to 40 off-road vehicles through the Pinelands nearly every weekend. Not the Park Police nor anyone in this group is stopping them or have tried to stop them. You know what happens...the first driver hits a puddle and the next 25 run through it as fast and splashy as they can. They actually hope someone gets stuck so they can show off their new winch and pull them out. Add that to the wet woods and you have roads with no future and it prevents everyday people from using them in the future. There is no courtesy or concern for anyone else. You probably know that the roads are very fragile because of the makeup of the Pinelands soils, they can't take that kind of abuse.
Take enduro events. Everyone is getting pissed because one event has been rescheduled, actually two the Jeep Jamboree has been too, and they are a group just like I described above. But think about the long story, not just one event. Most enduros will have 200 participates. Multiple that by 12 events per year and you have 2400 vehicles running over a fragile landscape and they come back week after week, month after month in pretty large numbers and do the same thing. Add to that all the jeep clubs, the tread lightly people, and rogue runs and the numbers get pretty astronomical. Everyone claims there are a few renegade people or groups doing all the damage well the is just bullshit. A couple of people or groups would have to be working day and night 24/7 to cause all the damage done to the Pinelands roads infrastructure. It is everything I have described above. When I was employed I was a fishing tackle rep and in the '80s the Delaware Bay would produce world-class weak fishing. Then it fell off. Everyone blamed the commercial fishermen, the netters. It wasn't them. It was the hundreds of boats all trying to catch 100 weakfish per trip each and every day as long as they could. The "it ain't me" cry is bullshit. It is the same thing happen in the Pinelands. The Pinelands is dying from a thousand cuts.
...."The prominent posters on this forum have the deepest respect for the pinelands. Their knowledge of the history and geography is far greater than any ranger at Batsto or anyone at the DEP." isn't cutting it. They bitch and moan and complain about everything they can but they do NOTHING but pick up trash, if that. When asked to join in repairing roads, prevent stream erosion, replanting, and blocking areas so they can re-grow they just complain they have tried but can't get cooperation for the DEP or Wharton SF. Well, maybe your projects just aren't what Wharton and the rest of the Pinelands need. We all pick up trash, all of us, but we are not all protecting areas that need it and preventing future problems.
Jon, I know that you are from my area and I would like to extend to you an invitation to join me on a trip, or two or three, through the Pinelands, not just Wharton....the Pinelands. If after that trip you still want to side with what is not going on then I will leave it all alone. Just email me and I will arrange a trip anytime that you can make it.
 
Al, I bought your book. You have pictures of the Mullica at Locks Bridge, the Oswego River and Friendship. Are you telling us that you parked on Rt. 206 and Rt. 679, and hiked in with photo backpack and tripod in the dark to get your beautiful sunrise shots? Those areas are miles into the woods.

Or did you drive into Wharton Forest in a "machine made to conquer the land"?

Come clean here, your position is more than a little hypocritical.
No, actually I drove on roads that were drivable to all of the locations you mentioned and in some areas I took my chances. And, yes, I did some hiking as well. My vehicle is a 2007 Ford Escape 4x4 with 200,000 miles on it, hardly a machine made to conquer the land. I have been in the Pinelands since I was 5 years old, that by the way is 67 years, and I know where to go and how it can look visually. The roads back in the '60s thru the '80s were nowhere like they are now, believe me. Really, thank you for purchasing my book it has been a huge national success. I honestly made a $1.37 from your purchase. Not getting rich but it was a great endeavor and I am very proud of it. The book has been so successful that the NJ State Museum is doing a Pinelands exhibit celebrating the 40 years of the Pinelands Act of 1979, starting in Oct and running through June 2020, based around my work. Very proud of that too.
 

Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
21,685
3,670
1,093
...."The prominent posters on this forum have the deepest respect for the pinelands. Their knowledge of the history and geography is far greater than any ranger at Batsto or anyone at the DEP." isn't cutting it. They bitch and moan and complain about everything they can but they do NOTHING but pick up trash, if that. When asked to join in repairing roads, prevent stream erosion, replanting, and blocking areas so they can re-grow they just complain they have tried but can't get cooperation for the DEP or Wharton SF.

Maybe you should go through your photos and rethink this.