Guess Who ?
- Thread starter RednekF350
- Start date
Mostly what I find offensive here is you stirring the pot for the benefit of your agenda, however since you asked so politely what I find offensive is you suggesting a user group purchase their own land to do what they like while you use state land to do what you like free and clear. Most states in the NE also provide areas for ORV recreation that TAX dollars pay for, similar to what NJ promised and has not delivered on. Also skip the double talk Al, All NJ State Forests have designated areas to drive, they are called roads. Not sure about you but I obey the NMV areas to the letter because I enjoy driving around out there, its a privilege. As I said earlier, you should get to know people, if you did you would know that most if not all of the people you are bitching at here are not the problem and could very well work together toward a solution. You are so close minded you will never see that though, you have one objective and it is clear. If being a tax payer doesn't hold muster then why do we pay taxes and hold elections? If it doesn't hold muster who pays for "the land of the peoples" your words That is probably the dumbest statement I have seen you post.
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You really have no idea on how to organize large scale cleanups Al. It takes months of planning. Also, several of the people on this forum did assist with the barrier installations done a couple years ago, both at Mount and the West side of 206. They worked hard at it all day, and they saw you too, but did not criticize you for not chipping in due to your age and health problems.
Bob Moyer
You really have no idea on how to organize large scale cleanups Al. It takes months of planning. Also, several of the people on this forum did assist with the barrier installations done a couple years ago, both at Mount and the West side of 206. They worked hard at it all day, and they saw you too, but did not criticize you for not chipping in due to your age and health problems.
Bob Moyer
First off I used my own images and nothing was taken from this site.
Those signs have not done one thing to protect the Pines. They were developed because of the politically pressured DEP to appease the conservationists. Go write down all the laws cited any one of those signs, come home and look them up. It is a bunch of mono jumbo. I personally have translated them and find it mostly useless. Next, go to any park Police officer or State Police officer and ask them if they know what those statutes are they will not be able to answer you. It was all a blind attempt to appease some people by an administration that was trying to appease what they thought were their voters, most of whom don't vote. The hunters, who oppose the ORV people the most were told by their representatives that we were trying to shut down the entire forest. Not so, and we had exceptions for hunters build in. Thankfully their representatives have changed and perhaps will have more understanding of the issue. Hunters hate dirt bikes and loud noises while they are hunting, who would not. I was a hunter once and it drove me nuts. More importantly, it frightens the game and changes their habits. Again, those signs were a ruse.
We have organized large cleanups almost once a month. We are too busy with other projects to do two a month. We have very little planning because we are getting directly to those who care. We get large crowds. Recently, in a snow and ice covered environment, we cleaned up 2 - 30 cubic yard dumpsters in three hours in just one location, in the new property that Wharton just obtained. Some have criticized Wharton for not opening up this property to motor vehicles, but I can tell you it is already heavily impacted by off-roading. A major intermittent pond severally damage and ATV trails out the gazzoo. Surprise, Surprise they want it to be a hiking area only and the audience is very enthusiastic about that. Already hiking it undisturbed by ORV traffic.
Don't see your point here. The solutions are to save the land, not personal interest. The Pinelands is so important ecology that it has been named a UNESCO World Biosphere Reserve, there are only 669 in the entire world. In Europe, where I have traveled extensively, UNESCO sites are honored and protected. If that doesn't make you proud to want to save our Pinelands from destruction I don't know what will. Stop talking smack and start preserving what the world gave us to preserve.
Round and round it goes; slowly sinking into the slag.
Guy is NOT talking about signs. He and others from this site helped them build the barriers. And yeah, you're damned right they pressured DEP. It's their forest too. Throughout this entire conversation Al, you've spoken as if it were the people on this forum who entered quarter-mile and tore it up. You are blinded by hate.
I did not say you took photos from me or this site, you yourself took photos of me and others from this site helping out. So saying the members here don't help is incorrect.
There’s been a lot of back and forth, speculation and assumptions being made on this discussion. So to make things clear, I just have one question for Al Horner;
Can you tell us exactly what changes, etc you, or any Pinelands focused organization you are associated with wants to do with the Pinelands?
Can you tell us exactly what changes, etc you, or any Pinelands focused organization you are associated with wants to do with the Pinelands?
Not surprised you missed my point with your myopic view, you only see one point, your own. The solution is to work together in a personal interest we all share, which is being in the pinelands in any way we as individuals see fit, hiking, biking, walking, running and god forbid, driving. I am happy it has been named UNSECO, it does make me proud to say I live in it and protect it. The only one talking smack here is you. You come on this site intermittently and stir up your propaganda BS to serve your own agenda. Why not try to join a discussion here in a positive manner rather than coming in like a sledgehammer driving a thumbtack? I am also a hunter as are many other members here and I know we are opposed to any plan that involves mass closure of primary, secondary or tertiary roads. These roads are what give hunters access, which you should know being a hunter and photographer. Is it annoying to a hunter when a vehicle of any type drives by? or even when another hunter walks by? sure but I usually don't set up that close to a road or trail anyway. Good luck in life Al, see you out there.
Joe
Guys, don't try to confuse Al with facts, his mind is made up.
Just the fact that he doesn't remember that he took pictures of the "prominent members of this site" shows that he doesn't even know who he's talking to. As far as he's concerned, we're all people who want to go muddin' and that's all we see the Pine Barrens as. Don't mind the fact that this is primarily a HISTORY website. Don't mind the fact that more people here own cars than trucks.
You love shooting down people's opinions yet you turn around and try to ram your own down other people's throats. Maybe ORV use in New Hampshire works because there are strip mines that can be used for that sort of thing. I don't think New Jersey is brimming with places like that, and if there was one in the Pine Barrens the CMP would prevent it from being used like that. New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the nation, and it's ludicrous to expect that something that works in one state would work in all of them.
Here's the thing, Al. You are not any more entitled to the forrest than anybody else. You're at an advantage because you have a flunky in a position of power, and that person will abuse their power to work to advance your agenda, slowly, bit by bit, while most people don't notice.
What I will say is that you are on my website that I have invested a ton of time and money into. You took a swipe at one of my very good friends (Teegate) "Sorry, I don't understand your comment. Running out of logic?" I'm not going to stand for you using my website as a vehicle to spread your venom. This is your one warning: Act civil. Dial down the rhetoric. Cap your fangs. Have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise I'm going to block you. I'm tired of this, and I'm tired of you.
This also goes for everyone else. Be civil.
Just the fact that he doesn't remember that he took pictures of the "prominent members of this site" shows that he doesn't even know who he's talking to. As far as he's concerned, we're all people who want to go muddin' and that's all we see the Pine Barrens as. Don't mind the fact that this is primarily a HISTORY website. Don't mind the fact that more people here own cars than trucks.
You love shooting down people's opinions yet you turn around and try to ram your own down other people's throats. Maybe ORV use in New Hampshire works because there are strip mines that can be used for that sort of thing. I don't think New Jersey is brimming with places like that, and if there was one in the Pine Barrens the CMP would prevent it from being used like that. New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the nation, and it's ludicrous to expect that something that works in one state would work in all of them.
Here's the thing, Al. You are not any more entitled to the forrest than anybody else. You're at an advantage because you have a flunky in a position of power, and that person will abuse their power to work to advance your agenda, slowly, bit by bit, while most people don't notice.
What I will say is that you are on my website that I have invested a ton of time and money into. You took a swipe at one of my very good friends (Teegate) "Sorry, I don't understand your comment. Running out of logic?" I'm not going to stand for you using my website as a vehicle to spread your venom. This is your one warning: Act civil. Dial down the rhetoric. Cap your fangs. Have a reasonable discussion. Otherwise I'm going to block you. I'm tired of this, and I'm tired of you.
This also goes for everyone else. Be civil.
Well said Ben and thanks for all you do with this website
By the way you speak to people. Maybe you just don't realize how you come across, but you act like a bully.
Edit: And I am not the only person who feels that way.
Never once did I say I wanted to own the forest, far from it. You read into all of this with your own mind, not mine. Read what I have to say...I want everyone to enjoy it but it has to be treated with care. If some people here want to stick up for ORVs that is fine but I have a right to protest their use because of the destruction they have been causing. Don't know what part of the forest you go to but there sure ain't many places that haven't been infected by off-road abuse, and I will, and have, fight it all the way. Come take a ride with me, two members here have already accepted my offer. I will show you the true state of the Pinelands, and it ain't good. The only sensible thing to do is monitor and restrict them and control the forest by issuing a map that sets the locations and the rules for what can be done, not done, and where it can be done. Hunters have been told many times they will have special permits to do their thing...has no one listened to that. You just love drama based on your VIEWS not what is real and in your face. You read into everything the way you want to look at it, your way or the highway. No one here is getting hit with a ball bat if a little criticism can't be taken and mulled over to see others sides of the moon then it is a bad thing. THE PINELANDS ARE BEING DESTROYED INCH BY INCH, FOOT BY FOOT, AND NO ONE IS JOINING THE FIGHT TO PRESERVE IT FOR WHAT IT WAS MEANT FOR. It is not supposed to be the wild west out there, was never meant to be, but it is just that, the wild west, everyone does what they want and when they want. Nothing can sustain that type of behavior. Hope you are having an enjoyable time with your little power struggle.
You have never come out and said that you want to own the forest, but your actions say otherwise. I agree that ORVs have caused damage. In theory, I am in favor of a map (lower case) that shows where you can and can not drive, but only if it's drawn up in a manner far more transparent than the last one, with input from all stakeholders in the forest. I got up in front of an auditorium packed with people and said the same thing. I think that you'll find that only the most extreme people would object to something like that. Those are not the people here. Why and how are you the sole arbiter of what the Pinelands was meant for?
The fact that you're accusing me of loving drama based on my views is comical at best considering the trail of destruction you have left behind yourself as you act to troll people and spread your viewpoint online. Rather than be better known for your photography you've made a name as an internet bully. You ought to go and find all of your old discussions and print them out - it could be your next book.
You're projecting again.
You really can be obnoxiously passive aggressive. You really ought to step away from the computer for a bit and spend some time being introspective. You're not helping your cause.
The fact that you're accusing me of loving drama based on my views is comical at best considering the trail of destruction you have left behind yourself as you act to troll people and spread your viewpoint online. Rather than be better known for your photography you've made a name as an internet bully. You ought to go and find all of your old discussions and print them out - it could be your next book.
You're projecting again.
You really can be obnoxiously passive aggressive. You really ought to step away from the computer for a bit and spend some time being introspective. You're not helping your cause.
The why have you not stepped up, with this group and demanded a map be drawn up for all the State Forest and WMA? Do you want someone else to do it and then you scream because you won't asked for your viewpoint. The MAP was worked on for six years, every inch of Wharton was surveyed, every trail, every habitat. There were meetings prior to the delivery of the MAP to the DEP, many meetings in fact. Don't know why you were not included but that is not my call. The DEP loved the idea and went all in and asked for it to be instituted promptly and it was. I was part of that group. The DEP buckled because of political pressure for the ORV crowd who convinced the hunters to join them (the real voting power) by telling the hunters that all of the forests were being closed down by their leader whose family member was, and perhaps still is, a mudder.
Why are you making the assumption that I haven't tried to get something like that done?
Nobody knew about the MAP before it was released. Those meetings were between the PPA and the DEP. Hardly inclusive. The hunters would have been negatively impacted by the MAP - that's why they fought against it. You seem to want to blame everything on a shadowy cabal of the "ORV crowd." Well, I'm not part of the ORV crowd and I railed against the MAP because it was a serious overreach and wasn't done with any input except from one special interest group. Can you see how the optics of the PPA's actions look?
I don't know who you're talking about re: the family member being a mudder. I remember that people from all interest groups talking to the various Sportsmen associations about the MAP and them making their own choice to support it or not. Or do you not believe they're capable of coming to a sound decision based on facts themselves?