State Shutdown

[bobpbx]

umm...it was not a 1% increase. it was a 16.7% increase. do the math. .06+16.7%=0.007002

Alright, let me rephrase that. It was a 1% increase in the tax that we would pay out of every dollar. That is what was announced to the public because that is the easiest way to understand it. We can see that easily by doing math in our heads for whatever we buy.

 

[Boyd]

No, it isn't "spin." True, the tax rate is now 1% higher. But it's a 16.7% increase over the old rate. This terminology is completely standard in the business world. Do you own any stocks? If IBM were selling for $6 per share and it went up to $7 per share then the financial news would report that as a 16.7% increase in share price, not a 1% increase. To report that as a 1% gain would be completely wrong.

To express the increase/decrease in anything you use this formula:

(new cost - old cost) / old cost = increase

If you bought something for $6 and you sold it for $7 you would have made a 16.7% profit. If you tax goes from 6% to 7% then you will pay 16.7% more than you did before.

So to express this as a 1% increase is "spinning" the story - not the other way around. " That is what was announced to the public because that is the easiest way to understand it. We can see that." Yes; exactly. That sounds logical and makes a good sound bite. Most people won't bother to really understand it and they can feel good about everything.

Having said all this, I don't think the increase is such a big deal and I don't really disagree with Badfish's sentimens on the issue. I'm not going to lose any sleep over the tax increase, and I'm not bashing Corzine. But if you call this a 1% increase then you just aren't familiar with the basic math which is used throughout the business world.

 

[bobpbx]

But if you call this a 1% increase then you just aren't familiar with the basic math which is used throughout the business world.

Oh, don't be such a stuffed shirt Boyd. You guys are bringing things into this discussion that are NEVER discussed when the government raises taxes.

"Harrumph! My dear Sir! You do not understand! This is appalling!"

 

[woodjin]

Hmmmmm, I don't know. It really is misleading to say it is a 1% increase. It is not. The question is, who called it a 1% increase? Corzine? It is an honest and understandable mistake if it was referred to that way on the forum, but if it was described this way to the public by a gov. rep. it is misleading.

Jeff

 

[Badfish740]

I think Jeff makes a good point but lets just say that Corzine had asked the public and the legislature for support for a 16.7% increase in the sales tax. People would have mobbed the streets and threatened their legislators with public hanging. Also, the state would probably STILL be shut down if that were the case. If there's one thing I learned about politics in college its that everything is about presentation. Did you ever hear about the kid who did a presentation to his science class about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide? He went on and on about its a dangerous chemical that is everywhere and that it can burn you, it can drown you, the U.S. Navy uses it during weapons testing, etc... Everyone was shocked to learn that he was actually talking about H2O, otherwise known as water.

 

[ebsi2001]

Go figure!

<SNIP>...
So to express this as a 1% increase is "spinning" the story - not the other way around. " That is what was announced to the public because that is the easiest way to understand it. We can see that." Yes; exactly. That sounds logical and makes a good sound bite. Most people won't bother to really understand it and they can feel good about everything. <SNIP>...

"Figures never lie, but liars often figure!" ​

anon​

ebsi

_________________________________

"Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical."

Yogi Berra ​

 

[bobpbx]

umm...it was not a 1% increase. it was a 16.7% increase. do the math. .06+16.7%=0.007002

King, Is what you have there supposed to be an algebraic formula? If so, it should look like this:

.06 + .167(.06) = .07

Note that .07 equals 7%, not .007 like in your formula. When you put parenthesis in, you are saying "of" and multiplying. So we are saying in the formula:

6% + (what?) = 7%.

Since .167 X .06 = .01, and .01 equals 1%. Then you have:

.06 + .01 = .07 OR 6% + 1% = 7%.

 

[bobpbx]

Hmmmmm, I don't know. It really is misleading to say it is a 1% increase. It is not. Jeff

Jeff, ask yourself; "is it a 1% increase in the "rate" or not?

 

[bobpbx]

If you bought something for $6 and you sold it for $7 you would have made a 16.7% profit. If you tax goes from 6% to 7% then you will pay 16.7% more than you did before.

Then, using your logic (and King's), if the tax one day ends up at 9%, if they then increase it to 10%, its really only an 11% increase, so we should feel a lot better then when they increased it a penny from 6 to 7% and you called it a 16.7% increase. After all;

(new cost - old cost) / old cost = increase

(10-9)/9 = .11

I don't like your logic. Its flawed.

 

[omega]

it's a one cent increase in the sales tax. easily understandable and how I as a furloughed state worker, glued to the TV last week waiting for word as to when I could come back to work, and suffering thru Jim Hooker's dreadful live reports on NJN, heard it most often refered to. the only ones who called it a 16.7 percent increase were those who thru statistics tried to make it sound bigger than it was.

I'm so glad that the Ass. speaker whathisname held out to get just what was on the table 10 days before the shutdown, and then proclaimed on TV he was able to solve the problem. He was the freakin problem, he had no plan, no clue and 100 days to come up with an alternative and did nothing but sit on his hands.

I think dick codey put it best, Corzine knows budgets, but he got a lesson in the politics of budgets this year. then the budget "hearings" what a joke, they took nearly a day to get to the actual budget bill, while they were making sure they got their spending programs approved for their supporters, same old same old, smells like PORK to me.

 

[long-a-coming]

Flagpoles missing

While one of the Legionaires was giving a speech at the Carranza ceremony, I thought I heard him talk about flagpoles from the state that were not delivered. There were two large flags (Mexican and American) hanging from a limb of a pine tree next to the memorial. I had some difficulty hearing from where I was standing but what I think I heard was that the state was supposed to supply the flagpoles and they didn't show up. Anyone else hear this?

 

[Boyd]

Then, using your logic (and King's), if the tax one day ends up at 9%, if they then increase it to 10%, its really only an 11% increase, so we should feel a lot better then when they increased it a penny from 6 to 7%

That is true. 1 divided by 9 is a smaller number than 1 divided by 6. Logic has nothing to do with it - it's just math. Feel free to ignore it and interpret any way you want, that's up to you.

You can state it two different ways:

a) The tax rate is going up by 1 cent on the dollar. It is going to be one percent higher than it was before.

b) The tax rate has increased by 16.7%

In business and law you have to choose your words carefully.

Both of these statements are true and not mutually exclusive. I know I'b beating a dead horse, but maybe the following example illustrates how this will actually affect you. For the sake of argument, let's assume that you bought a $20,000 car last year and you replace it with another $20,000 car next year. Last year the tax would have been:

$20,000 x .06 = $1,200

Next year the tax will be

$20,000 x .07 = $1,400

Now it's true that it will cost 1% more next year - $200. But the increase must be viewed in relation to the old cost of the tax, which is:

200 / 1,200 = .167

This isn't some kind of "flawed logic," it's just business math. Of all people, Corzine understands this. Most people will just go happily about their business and not think about this, which is unfortunate because they don't really understand what's going on. Like I said, I'm not really opposed to the increase but at least I understand what the real story is.

And billmecca, I'm with you. It does smell like pork. Even while they were supposed to be working hard to get the budget approved last Friday night the politicians found a way to add $300 million in local porkbarrel appropriations. That's really outrageous. The $300M is a significant chunk of the $1.8B that the sales tax increase will bring in next year (heh, it's 16.7% in fact )

And then they will dedicate 50% of this $1.8B to "property tax relief" this year, and 100% of it to property tax relief for the next 10 years. Hey, I'll take my tax rebate check and deposit it like everyone else, but I sorta don't get the whole thing. We're just moving money from one pocket to another. It looks like people who don't own homes are getting shafted to me. Their sales tax is going up to subsidize homeowners.

Whatever, I'm glad that got the thing settled and we don't have to hear about it on the news anymore. Now we call all forget about it and let the politicians go about their business like they always do. Same as it ever was...

 

[omega]

yes boyd, same as it ever was. If I'm not mistaken though renters can apply for a lesser homestead rebate.

I watched some of the pork rinding....the one that made me happy I live where I do, was the tax exemption or help for the woman who was on Extreme Makeover Home Edition. the burned out house was $200,000, the new one $750,000 and the taxes tripled to $25-30,000 a year. how does anyone afford that?

Oh, let's see most that own homes in that area are legislators who rent them out? :lol:

I just want them to fun the durn pension, after CW raped it for one of her cook the books and fake balanced budget, we have been on thin ice. 12 years ago the pension fund was doing so well we didn't have to contribute, the interest it was gaining on investments was going gangbusters, then she decided to steal my money (along with all the other state workers) to make her pulled pork sammich.

 

[Teegate]

Having been away that week I was without access to all that went on and did not even read most of the earlier posts on this thread. So I will discuss something else that I hope has not been discussed here.

Get out your old pay stubs or even this years and check this out.

There is a finite amount of money you pay each year into the SUI, and depending on how much money you make you can pay it off before the end of the year. Then each week after that you basically get a "raise" since you don't have to pay it until the next year comes around. Well, he tripled the amount you have to pay so if you were someone who may have paid it off around April or May forget about ever paying it off now. You will not get the "raise" you always expected.

Guy

 

[Boyd]

Yes - I heard something about that. I think it only applied to the first $30,000 you earn. As I understand, it will now apply to the first $90,000 your earn in a tax year.

 

[Teegate]

Here is another tax that is annoying me.

I have been visiting Vermont since 1967 and the gas prices there were always 10 to 15 cents more than here in years past. Last week I paid $2.79 a gallon for it in the most remote sections of the state and it is over $3 a gallon here. They do not even have refineries there so the gas has to travel long distances to deliver. The gas tax in this state has caught up to and passed other states drastically over the years. Not the current administrations fault, but hopefully he don't add to the problem.

Guy

 

[Ben Ruset]

Yes - I heard something about that. I think it only applied to the first $30,000 you earn. As I understand, it will now apply to the first $90,000 your earn in a tax year.

He's probably so clueless that he thinks that most people actually make more than $90k/yr.

 

[Ben Ruset]

:jeffd: :jeffd: :jeffd: :jeffd: :jeffd:

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060711/NEWS/607110308

Good news scarce for taxpayers

Increased levies take effect Saturday
Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 07/11/06

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
TRENTON — While the political bickering that shut down New Jersey's government for almost a full week is over, the end of the showdown over the state budget doesn't bring much good news for New Jersey taxpayers.

Starting Saturday, they'll pay increased sales and other taxes. Starting Oct. 1, they'll pay the sales tax on more items.

Relief from the nation's highest property taxes is still uncertain, and many residents will see lower property tax rebates.

Some questions and answers about New Jersey's new, $30.8 billion budget:

Q: What happened with the sales tax?

A: The sales tax will increase from 6 percent to 7 percent, as sought by Gov. Corzine, though $600 million raised by the increase will go to property tax relief. The increase was to become effective Oct. 1, but the legislation approved early Saturday makes the increase effective on Saturday. Treasury spokesman Tom Vincz said moving the date up 10 weeks allows the state to collect more money.

Q: What else will fall under the sales tax?

A: As of Oct. 1, plenty. Downloaded music, ringtones, movies and books will be subject to it.

Shipping and handling, drapery and carpet dry cleaning, floor installing, contracted landscaping, self-storage, tanning, massages, tattooing, magazines and investigation and security services such as armored cars and alarm systems will fall under it.

Limousines, except for those used in funerals, will be taxed, as will memberships in health, athletic and shopping clubs.

Parking — except for employee parking, parking at municipal meters and parking already subject to municipal parking taxes — will also be taxed.

Q: What about my property tax rebate?

A: Senior and disabled citizens will again receive up to $1,200, while those earning less than $70,000 per year will again get up to $350. But those earning more than $70,000 per year will see their rebates slashed $100.

Q: How does that help, considering the state has the highest property taxes in the nation?

A: The budget cuts property tax rebate spending by $164 million and includes no increase in state aid for most municipalities and school districts. Rebates haven't increased in two years, and state aid hasn't increased in five years. Property taxes have increased about 7 percent annually during that time, so New Jerseyans have lost ground.

The budget does include the $600 million for property tax relief from the sales tax increase. Legislators haven't decided how that money will be spent, but Assembly Speaker Joseph Roberts Jr. said it will be sent directly to homeowners.

Q: What about other taxes?

A: If you run a business in an Urban Enterprise Zone, where only half the sales tax is charged, you'll now pay full sales tax when making purchases and will have to wait for a rebate from the state.

Cigarette taxes increase by 18 cents on Saturday to $2.58 per pack, and snuff tobacco will be taxed on weight, not price.

Corporations will pay a new income tax even as another state corporate tax expired.

As of Saturday, people who buy cars that cost at least $45,000 or get less than 19 miles per gallon will pay a tax equal to 1 percent of the purchase or lease price. Also as of Saturday, a 6 percent tax will be charged on fur clothing.

Effective immediately is an increase of the rental car tax from $2 to $5 per day.

Q: What about state workers out of work a week?

A: Vincz said they will be paid. He said state payroll is processing paychecks normally.

Q: What about state colleges and universities?

A: Corzine proposed cutting state higher education spending by $300 million. The final budget cut it by $200 million.

 

[woodjin]

Okay, they are just making stuff up now, "muncipal parking already subject to tax, will also be taxed" I don't think they are missing anything now. Hey, what about a tax for looking East while walking North. That shouldn't be free.

Jeff

 

[Boyd]

I just listened to Corzine, who was the guest on NJ101.5 this morning from 7:00-8:00AM. They only took one phone call the whole time, and it was sort of a "soft-paw" treatment from Jim Gearhardt (which surprised me a bit because he often rants and raves about taxes).

Anyway, he comes across as a nice guy, and he said some good things but nothing of any real substance. However, regarding the use of sales tax for property tax he said nothing had been worked out yet. However he feels it should be used as a lever to force municipalities to consolidate. So in other words, if a town combines its school district or fire department with another town, he would like to reward them with state property tax relief dollars. He said he did not favor just distributing it directly to homeowners.

Another thing came out which really struck me regarding the pointlessnes of the whole state shutdown. The compromise they finally adopted is the same thing he had agreed to 10 days before the shutdown. And he said he signed an order directing all state employees to be paid in full for the days they missed work. So this whole fiasco was completely unneccesary and a huge waste.