WOW! Just when I thought the Bush administration couldn't get any lower...

[Ben Ruset]

As long as it stays reasonably civil, doesn't spread to every other thread on the site, and stayes on General Discussion, I am fine with political talk.

I have been thinking of creating an entirely new message board site that would basically be more general in nature - politics, sports, etc. It would have nothing to do with the Pine Barrens, but would give everyone here another place to sound off. Dunno how great of an idea it is, plus it's a lot of effort and money to do.

Badfish, I posted this thread in General discussion because, as its description says, we can discuss almost anything here. If people don;t want to discuss politics, then they need not post. On that note, your posts are well-reasoned and very impersonal. Keep up the good work.

Boyd,

Can't we have respectful conversations concerning things not pine-related?

 

[pinelandpaddler]

Behr, you must have read the quote in context to be so sure that Kerry was bashing the troops rather than the President. Where did you find the transcript?I haven't been able to locate it....

 

[pinelandpaddler]

Ok, I watched the full speech. Whatever he meant, Kerry f#$%ed up, there is no doubt about that.

What is the lesson to be learned from this? The Democratic party are anti-American, troop-hating baby-killers.

All kidding aside, it is still shameful that the GOP would rather engage in petty political tactics than take responsibility for their decisions and change the course of the war. To persist in their failed policy, as they are adamant in doing, is far more demeaning to our troops than Kerry's idiotic comment could ever be.

For what it's worth, here is how the orginal text of the speech allegedly read: "It's great to be here with college students. I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

 

[pinelandpaddler]

I just read that President Bush was on the Rush Limbaugh show today. Are you kidding me? Nobody takes Rush seriously anymore, right?

 

[bobpbx]

As long as it stays reasonably civil, doesn't spread to every other thread on the site, and stayes on General Discussion, I am fine with political talk.

I have been thinking of creating an entirely new message board site that would basically be more general in nature - politics, sports, etc. It would have nothing to do with the Pine Barrens, but would give everyone here another place to sound off. Dunno how great of an idea it is, plus it's a lot of effort and money to do.

Thanks for taking the risk Ben. I think its more interesting to allow it on this site. If I only get a one dimensional view of others on this board, it is kind of shallow, I think--"Yeah, great that you love the pines, but what else are you all about-good or bad. What makes you tick and think the way you do?" After all, we do meet others on trips.

I am a little strong in my views, yes. I am seriously pro-freedom and human rights. And I watch the news a lot. I don't like the way this country is heading. I want my America back. The fault does not lie with the politicians either. Its greed and the "all about me" attitude of the american people. I think the way we handle Iraq (it is not a war) is just plain idiotic. If we had left Sadaam alone a few more years, they would have had their own civil war, leaving us out of it. Somebody in the Middle East was bound to overthrow him sooner or later. But no, we had to spend billions getting stuck in the mud ourselves.

Okay, I'm off the podium...........PS; you could create a forum called "political talk" or something like that, but then the danger would be others having no interest in the pines would jump in.

 

[pinelandpaddler]

Its greed and the "all about me" attitude of the american people. I think the way we handle Iraq (it is not a war) is just plain idiotic. If we had left Sadaam alone a few more years, they would have had their own civil war, leaving us out of it. Somebody in the Middle East was bound to overthrow him sooner or later. But no, we had to spend billions getting stuck in the mud ourselves.

It might seem idiotic from the perspective of a tax-paying American citizen to spend billions of dollars on a seeimgly senseless war, but there are people who are actually making alot of money from this war. I don't want to name names, but their initials are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, among others.

Ok, time for a little rant:

For politicians to get on their soapbox, lie to us, and tell us that we are winning and we need to "stay the course," at this point is unethical. This is obviously, by their own analysis, false. And to say that the people who orchestrated this whole thing have done great work, and don't need to be replaced, is insane. I feel like I'm in a horrible Kafka novel. I know of no other job where you can screw up this badly, costing tens and hundreds of thousands of lives unnecesarilly and still not only have a job, but be commended by your boss.

This is going to plague our country for many years to come. Children are growing up with reports of war and death and violence coming from the media. This will leave collective scars and will only pave the way for a future generation of militant US leaders. And what is happening to children in the US is inconsequential in comparison to the irreparable damage done to Iraqi children, who will grow up hating the US. Violence begets violence.

 

[grendel]

Badfish

 

[pinelandpaddler]

Grendel, real liberals eat babies for breakfast.

P.S. There isn't an established campground near the R.R. trestle on the Batsto, is there?

 

[Badfish740]

Badfish
I once saw an interview with a North Vietnamese General . he said that in the late sixties the only thread of hope that the north had was the anti-war movement in America.

This isn't about a bunch of long haired college kids wearing tye-dyed shirts and holding up pictures of Chairman Mao. This is about ending a war by WINNING it-something the Bush Administration has proved it is not capable of. The Vietnam anti-war movement was a misguided, backwards, effort. I wasn't even close to being born then so don't go blaming me. There are no Democrats cozying up to terrorists and getting their pictures taken with American POWs like Hanoi Jane.

John Kerry used the term "baby killers" in 71.

Can I make myself more clear? John Kerry no longer leads the party, he is no longer the choice of the party, he is simply a pathetic self promoting coattail hanger like Al Bore, trying to get his name in the news any way he can! I AM A DEMOCRAT AND JOHN KERRY DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ME!!!

I just find it ironic that anyone who supports abortion could have a problem with killing our enemies.

I don't support abortion, its none of my business-I'm not a female. As far as killing our enemies, on the contrary, I'd love to see ALL of them killed. I'd like to see Al quadea wiped from the face of the earth. I'd like to see Osama bin Laden's head displayed in the Smithsonian museum. I'd like to see the Saudis (yes, your buddies the Saudis) who support terrorism with oil money boiled in their own crude. Does that answer your question on whether or not I want to see our enemies killed?

A war is over when your enemies are defeated.

For your enemies to be defeated you need a winner, not a loser for a President.

 

[BEHR655]

For what it's worth, here is how the orginal text of the speech allegedly read: "It's great to be here with college students. I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

No, that is what he was supposed to say. That is NOT what he said.

Steve

 

[BEHR655]

I am a little strong in my views, yes. I am seriously pro-freedom and human rights. And I watch the news a lot. I don't like the way this country is heading. I want my America back. The fault does not lie with the politicians either. Its greed and the "all about me" attitude of the american people.

Here we agree Bob. Only I would add that it is the "all about me" attitude that has this war all f'ed up. "Saddam didn't personally and directly harm us (yet) so why are we there." People need to understand the past and have an eye to the future to understand the need for this. But most people in this country only care about who some celebrity is dating and worry about their asses looking fat.

I think the way we handle Iraq (it is not a war) is just plain idiotic. If we had left Sadaam alone a few more years, they would have had their own civil war, leaving us out of it. Somebody in the Middle East was bound to overthrow him sooner or later. But no, we had to spend billions getting stuck in the mud ourselves.
.

Here we do not agree. Yeah, we should have let Iran or Syria take over Iraq. Just what we need.


Steve

 

[Ben Ruset]

Here we agree Bob. Only I would add that it is the "all about me" attitude that has this war all f'ed up. "Saddam didn't personally and directly harm us (yet) so why are we there." People need to understand the past and have an eye to the future to understand the need for this. But most people in this country only care about who some celebrity is dating and worry about their asses looking fat.

Saddam, while an entrely evil man, brought stability to a region that is now in chaos. People died under his reign, but far far less than those dying because of the war that America started.

Saddam had no way of affecting America. Al-Queda hated him (and vice versa), they had no infrastructure for WMD's even on the drawing board.

Iraq is just a distraction away from Afghanistan, where we really should be focusing our efforts on.

 

[kingofthepines]

Saddam, while an entrely evil man, brought stability to a region that is now in chaos. People died under his reign, but far far less than those dying because of the war that America started.

Saddam had no way of affecting America. Al-Queda hated him (and vice versa), they had no infrastructure for WMD's even on the drawing board.

Iraq is just a distraction away from Afghanistan, where we really should be focusing our efforts on.

This is just silly. I guess the 8 year Iran-Iraq war was stability in the region. Or Saddams invasion of both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. How many died under Saddams dictatorship? 1000, maybe a million or more? Does anyone know for sure? You honestly think that America is responsible for more deaths? This is folly. As far as Saddam having no way of affecting America, see Kuwait/Saudi Arabia. Oil fields etc. I love revisionist history.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Okay, so the Iran-Iraq war was from 1980-1988. Gulf 1 was 1990-1991.

I would say that the region was pretty stable since 1991. With the exception of the Israeli-Palestinian violence, what major goings on have happened there? Certainly not anything on the scale of what we have now.

In any case, my comment about stability was more about stability within Iraq. Already, since the war has begun, over 1 million Iraqi's have died. There is sectarian violence between the Sunni's and the Shi'a that is teetering the nation over the edge towards civil war. There is daily violence on a scale that never happened during Saddam.

When you have people who have their families murdered by other Iraqi's, or by military action, or for any other reason, who are they going to blame? America. Because we created the mess that the country is in now. Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorisim now as a direct result of what we did.

I was reading about a guy who was driving towards a checkpoint in Iraq. He was going too fast, and soldiers opened fire on him. He watched his 3 year old daughters head explode. This happens on a daily basis. When you watch the people that you love be murdered or killed, what else is there to live for? Even if the action isn't done by America, we're going to be blamed for it.

I don't even see how Kuwait/Saudi Arabia has anything to do with this. Nor do I see what oil does. In fact, since "liberating" Iraq of Saddam, our oil prices have gone through the roof.

 

[BEHR655]

This is just silly. I guess the 8 year Iran-Iraq war was stability in the region. Or Saddams invasion of both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. How many died under Saddams dictatorship? 1000, maybe a million or more? Does anyone know for sure? You honestly think that America is responsible for more deaths? This is folly. As far as Saddam having no way of affecting America, see Kuwait/Saudi Arabia. Oil fields etc. I love revisionist history.

 

[kingofthepines]

Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorisim now as a direct result of what we did.

History Quiz:
Do you remember?

1. In 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. A Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bills women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. In 2000 the USS Cole was bombed by:
a. Boris Yeltzin
b. Barbra Streisand
c. Aunt Jemima
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of the United States
c. Father Beck
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

I'll have to remember that Iraq is a breeding groung for terrorists as a direct result of what we have done.

 

[Ben Ruset]

I'll have to remember that Iraq is a breeding groung for terrorists as a direct result of what we have done.

Do me a favor. Please go back and re-read everything that I have posted. Please find where I said that there was no such thing as terrorisim before.

Now, explain to me how throwing an entire country into chaos, allowing thugs to raise militias to go out and kill innocent people, killing innocent people ourselves, is not going to incite people to hate us more?

 

[pinelandpaddler]

Behr said:

No, that is what he was supposed to say. That is NOT what he said.

Yes, I understand that. The question is whether or not that is what the text actually said and that Kerry botched it.

 

[pinelandpaddler]

How anyone can not see that this war is only breeding more terrorists (much, much more than had we not engaged in this monumentally backwards war) I do not know. God help us.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Behr said:
Yes, I understand that. The question is whether or not that is what the text actually said and that Kerry botched it.

It doesn't really make much sense the way he said it. Don't get an education and you get stuck in Iraq? Well, most people would just not join the military then.

Either way, it was a dumb "joke" that I don't think reflects on his politics so much as him just being an uncharasmatic boor.