Sorry, I seem to be a bit late on this discussion. Once I learned of this horrible MAP idea, I began contacting all of my congressman and state agencies. I am also a veteran, and I served my country proudly for 8 years in such places as Korea, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar. I find it very ironic that I spent so much time defending other people's countries in my youth, only to now have to defend my own land, in my home state. Sheer madness.
ORV Management In Sensitive Areas Of Wharton
- Thread starter Teegate
- Start date
That's probably the biggest shame of all. The two sides of this united for a common purpose would probably put fear into the hearts of any opponent.
That's nice in theory. But it requires trust and there isn't a lot of that going around right now. It also requires compromise. One side has to be willing to concede that they can't "save" everything and the other side has to be willing to concede that they can't go everywhere. But nobody wants to give an inch because the lack of trust has convinced everyone involved that the other side wants everything and will make a play for it the first chance they get. We're all arguing about maps and stakeholder meetings, meanwhile, the people out there doing all the damage are clueless about all this fighting and they're still doing exactly what they've always done.
At last year's Pine Barrens 4x4 clean-up, several hundred 4x4 enthusiants showed up and filled 3 dumspters in less than 2 hours with several tons of trash that had been sitting in Whitesbog for years. And they did it for free! Can you imagine what could be accomplished if Wharton leveraged that passion? These aren't people who want to see an area destroyed. You don't crawl through thorns and vines to pull soggy mattresses out of a ditch if you're not someone who cares. You don't stand around shoveling a pile of really heavy shingles into trash bags for hours if you're not someone who cares. You don't risk throwing discarded bags full of strange, mystery clumps into your Jeep and have them smell up the whole thing for days if you're not someone who cares. There were no reporters. There were no news cameras. Nobody got offered a job or grant money for it. All they got was a "thank you" and to have all that care go thoroughly ignored and unappreciated, while being branded a villain...well...maybe you can appreciate one of the reasons why so many people are offended and angry.
Last edited:
That is a very gracious thing for you to say.
Frankly, I haven't seen too much "democracy" at work though. One special interest lobby works behind closed doors to put new regulations in place without any transparency or accountability to the public. Then another special interest lobby meets with the DEP Commissioner behind closed doors and has the regulations suspended, as revealed in a personal letter with the tagline "Thank you for your continued support".
One can only hope that the upcoming public meetings will let a little sunshine in.
I love you Boyd but I have to disagree with you on this one point.
Just about everyone who enjoys the pines can be categorized as belonging to one special interest group or sometimes multiple special interest groups, as is the case with me.
I was one of the people who sounded the early alarms with my close contact in the New Jersey Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (NJFSC) and the New Jersey Outdoor Alliance (NJOA). I believe you are referring to the NJOA with your comment above. Both of these organizations have thousands of members and supporters and that is certainly not a negative when it comes to protecting our rights.
I am very glad that the NJOA brought the big hammer with them to their meeting with NJDEP and I am also very glad that they were able to swiftly command a meeting with the NJDEP Commissioner on such a critical and emergent matter. Furthermore, I was also pleased with what Guy had to say about Anthony Mauro, the head of the NJOA when he appeared recently with multiple stakeholders.
We would not be in the relatively positive position that we are in right now without the relentless pressure from all of the special interest groups. Bear in mind that some of those special interest groups didn't even exist until this nightmare unfolded only three months ago.
Scott
Don't sell the towns that filed resolutions against the MAP short either.
Not for a second John.
And let's all remember that the ideas for drafting municipal resolutions opposing the MAP originated with a member of this special interest group.
I have to slightly disagree here. The most vocal anti-MAP people are saying that they're okay with not being able to go everywhere. From day #1 NJPineBarrens.com, NJOA, and OTNJ have all said that we realize the forest needs to be protected, that there's areas that need to be closed off. Those are the most vocal and active anti-MAP groups. To my knowledge nobody has suggested or advocated that the forest be opened up in its entirety. The only thing that we've said that could remotely be taken for wanting the forest opened up was that the draft MAP be scrapped and a blank slate used to plan closures for discussion during the stakeholder's meetings. So let's not have any misconceptions: NJPB, NJOA, and OTNJ understand and advocate for limited closures. Close off the at risk areas and leave the areas that are not at risk open. Seems pretty simple and reasonable to me.
For something like 15 years the 4x4 cleanup was held in Wharton. They pulled tons and tons of trash out, and year after year Wharton was cleaner and cleaner. A few years ago Rob told them that they were no longer welcome in Wharton. The explanation that I heard (second hand) was that some of the 4x4s allegedly involved with the cleanup then went out to some damaged area and drove around. I don't know any more specifics (although I wonder if the vehicles that we "caught" were actually ones involved in the cleanup) but it does seem like not allowing the 4x4 cleanups to go ahead is a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Overall the cleanup is a net positive for the forest, so why then allow the trash to pile up and not be collected? Seems pretty weird to me. But, I'll stress again, this is just what I heard second hand.
Exactly. That side has already made that concession.
Exactly x 2. Even if the story about those people mudding during the clean-up was true, it's outrageous to consider that incident more important than removing several tons of garbage. It's a shocking lack of perspective that leads people to assume that it was just an excuse used to advance a larger agenda.
What about the wings at the Pic!
I stand corrected. They got a "thank you" and six chicken wings! Although, that was probably not that big a draw for anyone with acid reflux.
Hi all, last night was the "motorized" stakeholder forum session, which NJPB was represented in. (As well as OTNJ and others). It was an extremely productive meeting. Lots of great ideas shared and the DEP was truely listening. We again got commitment that the MAP was dead and we are starting anew, and in a show of goodwill, Commisioner Martin directed that ALL the new no motor vehicle signs were to be removed by today. However, we must show support for this new approach by attending the public meeting on November 5th. Despite his sentiments here, Jason was up in Trenton yesterday beating the MAP dead horse. We submitted lots of great ideas last night that are alternatives to a "MAP like" approach which should accomplish the goals that the DEP set out to achieve. If the PPA really supports the DEPs goals, I would think they could get behind these ideas too... Only time will tell.
Last edited:
Hey Hey, I never said I was going to quit, just that I respect your efforts.
No, I didn't mean to imply you were quiting, just perhaps moving towards a solution we can all support. As you know, the MAP, as is, is a non starter for us.
I think all of us would like to work with the PPA and other orgs like the NJCF to find a long term solution to the problem that everyone can live with. I think there's some good ideas coming out of the stakeholder meetings. Time will tell.
I think that stakeholder meeting had a very good tone to it. I'd like to hope the public meeting on Nov. 5 will be a continuation of that productivity. But if it's just a rehash of all the same rhetoric that started all of this, then people are going to get quickly overcome by their emotions.
All,
Last night I attended the Motorized Access Stakeholder meeting as a representative for NJPineBarrens.com. I want to thank Ben for allowing me to do so. I really appreciate that.
Here is a basic review of my evening. There is some info in it that you might want to know if you are going to the November 5 public meeting.
I had bought a sandwich to eat at WaWa on my way there so I could eat it while walking around the Pleasant Mills cemetery as I was going to be early. I got honey mustard on it and figured I better get a mint or some gum. However, I forgot and realized that after leaving. So I decided to stop into the store in Nesco to pick some up. As I exited my car I noticed Mark Texel (Rob's boss) at the counter. Sure enough he was buying sandwiches with the two woman who were also attended the meeting. I stood behind them as they cashed out.
I arrived at Batsto and the enduro group was already there discussing strategy. Cindy Randazzo (DEP) came out of the building and practically ran across the parking lot to talk with us. The enduro group came over and we stood at my car talking with her. She pointed out that the discussion for the night was the MAP and to try and keep it strictly to that if possible. I am not sure if that was a way to keep them from talking about their agenda or not.
This is where she told us that Bob Martin had directed that morning to remove all signs that Rob and others had put up concerning the MAP. They would all be down by Friday at the latest. This will not include signs such as on Quaker Bridge road where the short roads go to the river and other places as well that were up before the MAP signs were started.
So we go in and noticed that the meeting was in the Truncer library with the book section closed off. I counted 23 people from the public. Also there were one park police officer, a few FFS men, a Threatened and Endangered species expert and the DEP group. The Superintendent was not there.
The moderator tells us how the meeting will go and she reads Bob Martin's letter that we all saw recently. She passes out copies and almost everyone had already known about it and did not take one. Maybe some people further away from me did but I did not notice. Mark Texel starts a slideshow and discusses the 6 goals.
1. Identify Routes
2.Enforcement
3.Focus maintenance
4.Public awareness
5.Protect threatened and endangered and cultural resources.
6. Comply with federal, state and Pinelands Commission rules or laws.
The discussion starts and it is obvious many of the individuals in the enduro group have done this before. Much of the conversations were about problems they have had getting access to some roads, paperwork, etc. They all spoke well, worked well together, and got along quite well with Mark Texel. Mark Texel and the moderator were very accommodating in promising to get paperwork and whatever else is needed to get their events up and running. They seemed happy with this. At one point one person mentioned Ed Campbell's post where Ed mentioned that party spot near Mannis Duck Pond should not be reported because of concerns that Rob would close the road. It was a direct reference to Rob and our concerns.
One man recommended that groups put up signs at the trouble spots and police the signs themselves. They would be more likely to report something if they saw the sign that they themselves put up was damaged. To be honest that was done before at Quarter Mile and then ended so I am not sure how well that would work.
Then came time for the MAP. They had one copy of it which already had been marked up by the Office of Emergency Management. Many of them were side roads with the area off of Tuckerton east of Jemima Mount taking a big hit.There did not seem to be a profuse amount but there were quite a bit. The moderator held it up and asked us if we wanted to mark it up. One man said nobody wants to mark the MAP and she put it right down. She then offered to stay past the allotted time and we all agreed on doing that. So the conversations continued and the MAP was never used.
The Park Police officer who I have seen before at Southhampton was questioned about a few things. He reminded us the Park Police are a separate entity and they would do what they needed to do when they see it. The same thing he basically said at Southhampton. He recommended wisely that we all "police our own."
Mark Texel makes a joke that we were easy compared to the Mayors in direct reference to the heated conversation at the Mayors Stakeholder meeting.
The November 5 meeting will have room for about 1000 people and anyone after that will be in a separate room with a TV to watch but not participate I would assume. So everyone needs to get there early or you will be left out if the auditorium fills. It was also revealed that it is in the works to acquire more money for Wharton to do maintenance and other things that are needed. I guess they finally realize that running a state park on $40,000 dollars a years does not cut it.
And at the end of the meeting the moderator again tells us the MAP is scrapped, no MAP in the near future, and there will be criteria to close roads. At this point most everyone gives a round of applause.
I can't say enough about how focused and intelligent the enduro group was. They most certainly have my respect. I would suggest to everyone that you should never complain about enduros in the pines. It is a great sport that needs to not be hampered like they have been in the past. One good thing that may come out of this MAP fiasco is the enduro folks may finally get some things they have wanted.
Also, on the DEP website there is a link to the Stakeholder meetings where you can get information on all previous meetings as well as other things.
Last night I attended the Motorized Access Stakeholder meeting as a representative for NJPineBarrens.com. I want to thank Ben for allowing me to do so. I really appreciate that.
Here is a basic review of my evening. There is some info in it that you might want to know if you are going to the November 5 public meeting.
I had bought a sandwich to eat at WaWa on my way there so I could eat it while walking around the Pleasant Mills cemetery as I was going to be early. I got honey mustard on it and figured I better get a mint or some gum. However, I forgot and realized that after leaving. So I decided to stop into the store in Nesco to pick some up. As I exited my car I noticed Mark Texel (Rob's boss) at the counter. Sure enough he was buying sandwiches with the two woman who were also attended the meeting. I stood behind them as they cashed out.
I arrived at Batsto and the enduro group was already there discussing strategy. Cindy Randazzo (DEP) came out of the building and practically ran across the parking lot to talk with us. The enduro group came over and we stood at my car talking with her. She pointed out that the discussion for the night was the MAP and to try and keep it strictly to that if possible. I am not sure if that was a way to keep them from talking about their agenda or not.
This is where she told us that Bob Martin had directed that morning to remove all signs that Rob and others had put up concerning the MAP. They would all be down by Friday at the latest. This will not include signs such as on Quaker Bridge road where the short roads go to the river and other places as well that were up before the MAP signs were started.
So we go in and noticed that the meeting was in the Truncer library with the book section closed off. I counted 23 people from the public. Also there were one park police officer, a few FFS men, a Threatened and Endangered species expert and the DEP group. The Superintendent was not there.
The moderator tells us how the meeting will go and she reads Bob Martin's letter that we all saw recently. She passes out copies and almost everyone had already known about it and did not take one. Maybe some people further away from me did but I did not notice. Mark Texel starts a slideshow and discusses the 6 goals.
1. Identify Routes
2.Enforcement
3.Focus maintenance
4.Public awareness
5.Protect threatened and endangered and cultural resources.
6. Comply with federal, state and Pinelands Commission rules or laws.
The discussion starts and it is obvious many of the individuals in the enduro group have done this before. Much of the conversations were about problems they have had getting access to some roads, paperwork, etc. They all spoke well, worked well together, and got along quite well with Mark Texel. Mark Texel and the moderator were very accommodating in promising to get paperwork and whatever else is needed to get their events up and running. They seemed happy with this. At one point one person mentioned Ed Campbell's post where Ed mentioned that party spot near Mannis Duck Pond should not be reported because of concerns that Rob would close the road. It was a direct reference to Rob and our concerns.
One man recommended that groups put up signs at the trouble spots and police the signs themselves. They would be more likely to report something if they saw the sign that they themselves put up was damaged. To be honest that was done before at Quarter Mile and then ended so I am not sure how well that would work.
Then came time for the MAP. They had one copy of it which already had been marked up by the Office of Emergency Management. Many of them were side roads with the area off of Tuckerton east of Jemima Mount taking a big hit.There did not seem to be a profuse amount but there were quite a bit. The moderator held it up and asked us if we wanted to mark it up. One man said nobody wants to mark the MAP and she put it right down. She then offered to stay past the allotted time and we all agreed on doing that. So the conversations continued and the MAP was never used.
The Park Police officer who I have seen before at Southhampton was questioned about a few things. He reminded us the Park Police are a separate entity and they would do what they needed to do when they see it. The same thing he basically said at Southhampton. He recommended wisely that we all "police our own."
Mark Texel makes a joke that we were easy compared to the Mayors in direct reference to the heated conversation at the Mayors Stakeholder meeting.
The November 5 meeting will have room for about 1000 people and anyone after that will be in a separate room with a TV to watch but not participate I would assume. So everyone needs to get there early or you will be left out if the auditorium fills. It was also revealed that it is in the works to acquire more money for Wharton to do maintenance and other things that are needed. I guess they finally realize that running a state park on $40,000 dollars a years does not cut it.
And at the end of the meeting the moderator again tells us the MAP is scrapped, no MAP in the near future, and there will be criteria to close roads. At this point most everyone gives a round of applause.
I can't say enough about how focused and intelligent the enduro group was. They most certainly have my respect. I would suggest to everyone that you should never complain about enduros in the pines. It is a great sport that needs to not be hampered like they have been in the past. One good thing that may come out of this MAP fiasco is the enduro folks may finally get some things they have wanted.
Also, on the DEP website there is a link to the Stakeholder meetings where you can get information on all previous meetings as well as other things.
Last edited: