ORV Management In Sensitive Areas Of Wharton

[smoke_jumper]

You may be correct. This does show the need for all of us to be more aware of what is going on out there.

Yes. I think we all are aware of the problem areas. Most of us don't even go to them. I feel that I'm more likey to report something now but not if I'm in an area that I shouldn't be. The crazy part to me is the roads I used to get to high crossing to avoid the puddles are now closed.

 

[Teegate]

Can you imagine how much money this state spends on that crap? If they put that towards enforcement we would not have a problem.

 

[smoke_jumper]

Yep I think that will get filed the same place as the map

 

[Teegate]

Make sure you NEVER have a copy of it in your vehicle.

 

[smoke_jumper]

Make sure you NEVER have a copy of it in your vehicle.

What map?

 

[Teegate]

I told Jessica that she must bring her GoPro with us every time we are out there. And when I go alone I will borrow it from her and keep it on my head running. The good thing is we may get some nice video of the woods. I just will have to remember to turn it off at certain times if you know what I mean. Just saying ....

 

[Pinesbucks]

Have a copy of what in my vehicle? I also am unable to read large words? What does motorized mean?

 

[Ben Ruset]

Mmyself and several other people met with Rob Auermueller for two hours last Saturday. Overall it was a fairly civil meeting, with only a few instances where people started to get heated. Anyway, here are some of the bullet points and my impressions on some of them in no particular order.

• They claim that the roads that have been closed so far are not part of the MAP program. They claim that the Recreational Trails grant money, which was not allocated for trail closures, did not get used to fund the closures that have happened thus far. Whether or not the signage was paid for out of the grant money or not, I think it's too much of a coincidence to ignore.
• The volunteers who worked to close the trails recently largely came from NJ Forest Fire Service employees. Apparently they have 100% buy in to this and they are the plan's biggest supporters. That one fire service truck getting stuck seems to be a major driver of this getting pushed through.
• Not every road that will be closed is going to be marked. The state is shifting the onus onto you to know where you are and if you're allowed to drive on the trail. The physical MAP is the canonical source of where you can and can not drive.
• In the past enforcement has been ineffective since municipal judges would often throw out the tickets since people were driving on what, for all intents and purposes, were roads. With the MAP, the DEP can now say that you were driving on a road known to be closed and you won't be able to avoid the ticket. It was mentioned that they want the fines to be astronomical, potentially to a point where they can seize ownership of your vehicle.
• A paper copy of the MAP will be available for sale at Atsion and Batsto for $5. It costs them $2.50 each to print, and the profit will go into an account that will be used for road maintenance.
• The state admits that enforcement will still be a challenge.
• The DEP only recognizes roads that have a right of way on them as being legitimate roads. Historic roads such as stagecoach roads and whatnot that do not fall under the criteria of being "roads" will be closed. The rationale is that they were never intended for motorized use since they were built before cars were invented. So when you say that ~500 miles of roads are now closed, the DEP's answer is that most were never roads to begin with.
• The DEP is not happy with the Forest Fire Service when they cut a road in to fight a fire and then do not do anything to remediate the damage.
• The DEP claims that the MAP will be subject to change and that CERTAIN roads MAY be reopened IF the maintenance crews can fix them. There's no action plan for that happening, though.
• The petition and the uproar from users on this site as well as various other social media outlets forced the DEP to release the MAP information early. Had this not been noticed the MAP would have been implemented - totally under the radar - by mid to late September. They're now in "damage control" mode.
• People who signed the petition will be getting a "thank you for your concern" email early this week. I get the impression that the DEP is digging their heels in on this. The legislators that also received the petition might be another story, although remember that the DEP has a direct line to them whereas it's easier for them to blow their constituents off. Medford Lakes' town council passing a resolution condemning the MAP angered the DEP.
  
• I made it quite clear that the fact that this happened without fanfare or public input was unacceptable.
• The petition's demand of re-opening everything and then only having targeted closures was a non-starter with Rob. He handed us a pen and asked, on the spot, to have us circle which roads we wanted roads opened. He claimed (sarcastically) that other groups he's met with were able to do it, so why couldn't we? It's impractical to come up with something like that on the spot, and also doesn't take into account the opinions of other interest groups in what areas they want to see opened. I don't think, for one second, that me circling a road on a map would somehow make the DEP amenable to opening up access anyway.
  
• There is a "historic preservation zone" that runs down the length of the Mullica and Batsto rivers. This was news to me. One only has to look at the ruins of the Atsion Cotton Mill, the railroad house at Atsion, the buildings at Friendship, etc. to see the level of priority that the State of New Jersey has for historic preservation.
• Rob did not like it when I mentioned that you're more likely to get busted for opening a beer at a campground than tearing up Quarter Mile.
• Rob asked me to post a link to the DEP MAP FAQ, which I did above.

Edit 8/18/15:

I forgot to mention three things:

• You will be able to apply for a Special Use Permit if you have a legitimate reason to bring your vehicle down one of the closed roads, if you are handicapped, etc. You'd have to go to the office at Batsto and get one. You will have to be specific about which roads and when you want to use them. Then, I imagine, it will be up to the superintendent or one of his designees to approve or deny the permit.
• They claim that every spot in the forest is within 1 mile of the allowed roads. A mile through choking briars to get to a spot that was better reached by a closed road is going to be pretty tough. A mile hike carrying a watercraft to your former old put-in in the river also sucks, especially if you have to bring more than one boat.
• If you want to go down the closed roads you'll be able to park your vehicle along the main roads as long as you're not blocking the road too much (shouldn't be too hard to do since the roads that are left open are generally pretty wide) but it will be up to the park police officer's discretion if you're parked illegally. Rob did not believe us when we told him about someone on this site getting a ticket for parking (safely) on the side of the road in Wharton.

 

[Boyd]

People who signed the petition will be getting a "thank you for your concern" email early this week.

…and added to their list of "trouble-makers"?

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

• The petition's demand of re-opening everything and then only having targeted closures was a non-starter with Rob. He handed us a pen and asked, on the spot, to have us circle which roads we wanted roads opened. He claimed (sarcastically) that other groups he's met with were able to do it, so why couldn't we? It's impractical to come up with something like that on the spot, and also doesn't take into account the opinions of other interest groups in what areas they want to see opened. I don't think, for one second, that me circling a road on a map would somehow make the DEP amenable to opening up access anyway.

You should have sarcastically circled the entire map

 

[1Jerseydevil]

The DEP only recognizes roads that have a right of way on them as being legitimate roads. Historic roads such as stagecoach roads and whatnot that do not fall under the criteria of being "roads" will be closed. The rationale is that they were never intended for motorized use since they were built before cars were invented. So when you say that ~500 miles of roads are now closed, the DEP's answer is that most were never roads to begin with.

Can anyone else see "fault" with this line of thinking? Think transportation, be it a road, trail or path not the mode of transportation. Under the DEP's definition would all roads purposely made for motor vehicles then be off limits to all other modes of non-motorized use? Were any of these "right of way" roads once stagecoach?
What is a "right of way" road? Have these roads only come into existence since motor vehicles?
Unfortunately the wording and thinking is ripe for a lawsuit and a lawyers dream. The "powers that be" are able to inflict injustice with no cost or consequences to them but costs much to change. The irony is that private funds must be raised to fight for change while public funds are used for defense. If effect tax payers seeking change are helping fund the fight against themselves.

As for the little known "newly released" natural preservation zones, would these by chance coincide with the areas now commercially exploited by the PPA?

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

As for the little known "newly released" natural preservation zones, would these by chance coincide with the areas now commercially exploited by the PPA?


I am applauding this statement and would be shocked if it turned out otherwise!

 

[46er]

Does anyone know what courts have jurisdiction if a summons is issued to someone?

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

Does anyone know what courts have jurisdiction if a summons is issued to someone?

I think it depends where you are, I know a friend of mine was issued a summons for turning around at APH (long story) and had to appear in Shamong.

 

[popeofthepines]

.

• They claim that the roads that have been closed so far are not part of the MAP program. They claim that the Recreational Trails grant money, which was not allocated for trail closures, did not get used to fund the closures that have happened thus far. Whether or not the signage was paid for out of the grant money or not, I think it's too much of a coincidence to ignore.
• The volunteers who worked to close the trails recently largely came from NJ Forest Fire Service employees. Apparently they have 100% buy in to this and they are the plan's biggest supporters. That one fire service truck getting stuck seems to be a major driver of this getting pushed through

[/QUOTE]

First Ben , thank you for all you have done to fight this closure.
I agree that the coincidence is too close to ignore. I am confused how the road closures are not part of the MAP since they restrict where the motorized vehicles can go? Is that not one of the restrictions that is written on the map itself in the lower left corner?

I am the only one that thinks FFS trucks have not become stuck before this event?
And I thought the volunteers were from the PPA? Not that they cannot be from both, I am just confused.

 

[popeofthepines]

I did not realize there was a second page to the MAP. And it has a picture of one of the signs.

http://www.nj.gov/dep/parksandforests/parks/maps/wsf_motorized_access_plan.pdf

 

[smoke_jumper]

Can anyone else see "fault" with this line of thinking? Think transportation, be it a road, trail or path not the mode of transportation. Under the DEP's definition would all roads purposely made for motor vehicles then be off limits to all other modes of non-motorized use? Were any of these "right of way" roads once stagecoach?
What is a "right of way" road? Have these roads only come into existence since motor vehicles?
Unfortunately the wording and thinking is ripe for a lawsuit and a lawyers dream. The "powers that be" are able to inflict injustice with no cost or consequences to them but costs much to change. The irony is that private funds must be raised to fight for change while public funds are used for defense. If effect tax payers seeking change are helping fund the fight against themselves.

As for the little known "newly released" natural preservation zones, would these by chance coincide with the areas now commercially exploited by the PPA?

They simply determined what roads they wanted to close and just make blanket statements that will cover the simple questions. How is East Stokes Road only closed in one section? Is that the only section that wasn't meant for motor vehicles? Are the closed roads just magically going get better? Why are the closures needed to maintain the roads that are open on the map? Couldn't they have been maintained before? And why weren't they? What's the annual budget for keeping the open roads open? (I hope it's not just map sales). Is the bridge going to get repaired at Pleasent Mills church? To me that should be a major concern for first responders and it's listed as an open road. I can keep going but you get the idea. I feel most of these decisions were made by people who just view the roads as just lines on a map.

 

[46er]

They simply determined what roads they wanted to close and just make blanket statements that will cover the simple questions. How is East Stokes Road only closed in one section? Is that the only section that wasn't meant for motor vehicles? Are the closed roads just magically going get better? Why are the closures needed to maintain the roads that are open on the map? Couldn't they have been maintained before? And why weren't they? What's the annual budget for keeping the open roads open? (I hope it's not just map sales). Is the bridge going to get repaired at Pleasent Mills church? To me that should be a major concern for first responders and it's listed as an open road. I can keep going but you get the idea. I feel most of these decisions were made by people.

Yep; people on a mission.

 

[pinelandpaddler]

The bridge behind the Pleasant Mills Methodist Church is owned by the County. The County doesn't want to repair it and is willing to give it to the State, but the State will not take it unless it is fixed.

 

[Don Catts]

They simply determined what roads they wanted to close and just make blanket statements that will cover the simple questions. How is East Stokes Road only closed in one section? Is that the only section that wasn't meant for motor vehicles? Are the closed roads just magically going get better? Why are the closures needed to maintain the roads that are open on the map? Couldn't they have been maintained before? And why weren't they? What's the annual budget for keeping the open roads open? (I hope it's not just map sales). Is the bridge going to get repaired at Pleasent Mills church? To me that should be a major concern for first responders and it's listed as an open road. I can keep going but you get the idea. I feel most of these decisions were made by people who just view the roads as just lines on a map.

Roads with a right of way are to stay open.
Don't know for sure, but East Stokes road probably has a right of way, maybe 3 or 4 chains. If you go to the original roads returns in the clerk's office you will find many more roads with R.O.W.s, some not used much anymore.