Thoughts on ATV use in New Jersey.

Discussion in 'The Slag Heap' started by Trailhead00, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. LARGO

    LARGO Piney

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    I feel as though I just didn't get through.
    Not about ATV's by the way.

    g.
     
  2. Jerseyman

    Jerseyman Piney

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    George:

    No, you are definitely not getting through!!!!!!!!!!!! Either that, or we are all gathered in the cavernous Grand Central Station straining to hear totally unintelligible train announcements echoing through the building. I’m not a drinking man, but these forums might drive me to it! :guinness:

    Jerseyman
     
  3. devilstoy

    devilstoy Explorer

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    AMEN TO THAT ! NUFF SAID :jeffd:
     
  4. dragoncjo

    dragoncjo Piney

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    Dude you are why your group gets no respect because of attitudes like you. No I'm not a ranger, and I'll defend orv use alot of times. What do you know about nature, I know those trees knocked down are serving a very good purpose at provide birthing habitat for several endangered species. I've been watching nature since I was a kid and have worked with that organization at helping to create habitat. And no buddy, I'm not God but these guys shut their bikes down because the realize the woods is for everyone and why throw sand and blast by me if they don't have to. And maybe your not out there to destroy things but much of the younger group of riders is. I've witnessed it time and time again. And dude I don't pretend to know about quading and mudding and all that but I know what I see on occassions, but don't come here and tell me about the natural world, because you come off sound real ignorant.....take a page out of mudboy's book on here, he can talk like an adult on here and understands compromising is the key to gaining respect and understanding among both groups.
     
  5. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    thanks, however i don't agree with the trees, This is "nature" right? we need to stop sticking our heads in it and let it take its course. we have already came in and ruined a lot, we mine as well, stay out of it as far as I'm concerned. I'm not gonna support an attitude like what was demonstrated, however for an untrained eye it does look horrible back there. Also people are tired of hearing excuses no matter what path we take. We have tried over and over again to do this legally.("we" are some ATV and "monster truck lol" enthusiasts not all.) We have a guy who has bought 900 acres back in 91/92 who decided he wanted to turn the last develop-able piece of land in the pine barrens into an "outdoor activity park" which would have everything, from hunting, paintball, target practice, fishing, hiking, camping, ATVs, "monster trucks lol" and basically everything else involved in ENJOYING the outdoors. Instead of taking the millions of dollars profit that he could have made off of the land, he said no to the home builders. he insisted that he would get his dream. He fought and fought and fought with the state, paying hundreds of thousands in lawyers and` the state insisted in not giving him the permits. Then along comes the "pinelands" and turns his land into preservation. They fail to realize that if it wasn't for him there would be a shopping mall and cookie cutter houses there. They continually fight him due to erosion that has happened over the years due to ATV and "monster trucks lol" . Now we have a man in his 70s who worked from the time he was 6 years old, saved money for many of years, and to top it all off who's dying of cancer, and what happens to him, no sympathy, no thanks, no nothing, what was once worth millions, and who was once worth millions is now worth nothing and owns a wasteland of "preservation" and has to go to court regularly to keep from having to pay for fines. Where I'm going w3ith this is that some of these environmentalists have their heads stuck so far up their asses that they don't even realize what the hell they are doing. Here's a guy who was gonna take a piece of land that was once cleared in the 60s or 70s and was still deemed build-able, and instead of letting the forest get stripped away to feed the state more taxes, he was just gonna have people out there enjoying it, providing riders and mudders a place to go and he gets punished for it.

    What I'm coming down to is no matter where we go its gotta be someone crying the blues. If we raised, lets say a million, and got a decent chunk of property even outside of the pine barrens, GARUNTEED we would have somebody there trying to shut us down. its either the noise from the trucks and quads or some bird living in that tree a snake living under that log, a frog living in that mudhole, a historic brick left on the ground or something. I'm not saying lets just go in there and wreck havoc on the habitat, I'm more than less saying lets move whatever the obstacle may be to another suitable habitat. We have to start working together in order to get anything done. If a park doesn't open, guess what, the illegal ATV use and swamps getting torn up by mud trucks is going to continue to happen and continue to grow. Off-road sports are growing all across the country and there isn't anything that's going to stop that. Its better off a confined area goes to shit than the whole pinelands. We have to work together, even if the guy with the mud truck on 57" agricultural tires has too shake hands with the tree frog lover, we have to come to some kind of truce, otherwise we are never going to see a decline in the wrecked acreage of sacred land in our lifetime.

    "part three lol" state provided park that Arron disagrees with and probably some others. We pay taxes on everything just as well as you do, I have about $1600 taken out of each pay for taxes. I want something out of it other than a pothole filled on a road that gets less travel than most dirt roads. Just like the boaters get there boat ramps and the shooters get their ranges, and golfers get their golf courses. time for change, I can guarantee that a well organized and thought out ORV park will bring in more business than any one other golf course around. (Chatsworth was the biggest joke of a park i have ever seen).
    I'd just like people to realize that we are all part of the destruction going on. we all live in houses where there was trees that got cleared away, some live in developments that use to be swamps, some of us play on 500 acre golf courses that used to be wetlands and trees we all shop at places that used to have trees. Every single one of us on this board is guilty for some kind of destruction to the environment. I'm in no way saying that we all just get together and say screw the environment, but I am saying that we all have to grow the hell up, stop hold grudges like two year old and open our minds to each other and try to solve a problem that's just going to continue to grow. Look at it this way, without the human race around the Earth would be pe4rfect at this point, no holes in the ozone, no emissions, clean water, no houses, just wilderness savanna and mountains. We are nothing more than fleas on the earths back. we will soon get shaken off its back like a dog would do, and its going to continue on its way. The Earth doesn't need the guy who loves the cute little frog, the earth doesn't need the guy who would squish the same frog with a "monster truck lol" tire. Lets work together and make the best out of what we have to work with.
    If anyone reads this whole thing, I'd like to personally thank you. I'm done typing now, hope it makes sense to EVERYONE!!!! :D
     
  6. bobpbx

    bobpbx Piney
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    I read the whole thing! Tell us how you really feel though. :)
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Explorer

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    Thats alot of text!!!
    It is however unfortunate that you as a tax payer dont get to pick and choose where your money goes, im sure the elderly arent thrilled paying our school taxes but they have to.

    Bottom line is there will never be an agreement that both sides find satisfactory on this issue. I guess if you wanted to stick it to the man you could always go and buy a enduro and ride where u want, but i doubt you or I or our children will see ATV's in the pines. I am no big fan of state or federal govt interfering in the lives of the people, but atleast this time the state is right in keeping atvs outa the state parks/pine barrens.

    Maybe if the ATV users acted as if they had some concern for the local lands and half a brain and didnt tear up the wetlands and stuff you guys would have a case, but as it is you guys are your own worse enemy. To the small percentage that ride illegally and destroy the pines keep it up, your helping us keep ATV's outa the woods.
     
  8. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    I cant agree with you anymore with keeping the atvs outta state land. but what about my friend who owns the 900 acres, do you think that was honestly the right thing to do to him? I'm not looking to stick it to the man either, I wouldnt mind having an enduro but i can't put my fiance and son on there with me. I'm a "monster truck lol" guy. i like my trucks i like 700 hp and i like mud. I like hills I like off camber situations. its just that we all get grouped together. For instance, Dredge land. totally a wasteland. Has heavy metals in it and is pretty much consider toxic waste. That is some of the best mud i have been in though. problem is that there are snapper turtles and a few birds out there that like to live in the reeds. My biggest question is, why is it so hard in this state? there are more states than not that have plenty of land for people to do there thing, which involves giant mudholes, and crawling over rocks. Do other states not have endangered species?
    Heres a question directly asked to you. would you rather have the damage contained to maybe 1200 acres or would you rather have the damage spread all through out the pines? I can tell you now, if we get a pot that we can go legally and the fines get increased for ORV use in the pines, or instant license suspension. you will see a significant decrease in damage. I have ran polls on all the local 4x4 sites (not ATV) on how many people would use a designated park for mud trucks andf other 4x4s and i'd have to say i had about 400 that have said yes and about 10 that said no. you know how much that would decrease the 4x4 outings into the pines that are specifically looking to hit. mud (wetlands)
     
  9. dragoncjo

    dragoncjo Piney

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    Mudboy, I read all the text you have lots of good points. Here is the one major issue in this state. You have a 1 million acre forest that is extremely rare in the world, with loads of rare species only found here, THIS PLACE IS TRUELY SPECIAL, MANY PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THIS and take it for granted, the barrens deserves total respect as do other precious areas like the everglades, grand canyon, yellowstone, etc. I'm dead serious the more time you spend studying the wildlife there you realize this, its not the wasteland sh_t hole that so many people in this state think. People from all over the world come to study this enviroment...it is that special. For all those reason there is going to be loads of issues anytime something is being done that is seen as destructive to a sensitive ecosystem and in return brings little money to the state....the risk/reward is low. The issue with ORV's is it is pretty hard to say there impact on the environment is a positive one, while you can make that arguement for some of the other groups using the pines(hunting, fishing, bird watching, etc). The difference to me is that in other northeast states the habitat is not at all rare. So having a park there is not as big of an issue. The percentage of rare species here to the amount of habitat is quite alot. As for your idea of moving the species to a different spot this really doesn't work for multiple reason. Most species when relocated die from the stress the new habitat is different then the one they breed in, lived in, hunted in etc. Also this takes a great deal of money to do environmental surveys that need to be done to deteremine what is to be relocated, then trapped, and then gauge the environmental impact to the old site and new site when animals are artificial placed in the new area. Who is going to pay for all that the ORV community? This sort of thing was done at the stafford business park for pine snakes and pine barrens treefrogs, but the work was paid for by the developer(target, dick's, etc). As for the chatsworth park I can see how you think it looks unsightly and most people not knowing the reasons would agree. I know for a fact that many of those trees were leveled for certain reasons. Some were absolutely leveled to block ORV access no doubt about it. They certainly want to destroy anything ORV's would enjoy there no doubt they don't want ORV's there......Also with the lack of burning, areas of fallen trees and open areas are crucial for the survival of several snakes species....that is something that are trying to mimic and provide. I certainly think you guys deserve a park but anywhere is Jersey is going to be tough, anything that is viewed as destructive to the fragile ecosystem is going to get looked at hard, it happens to builders all the time, golf courses, mining companies, etc.. The difference is that these guys have lots of money....unfortunately that is what get the job done at the end of the day.

    As for your idea of comprimising absolutely should be done. As I've said you guys deserve a park if the state promised you one.....but this state is hurting right now and in this economy it is hard to justify buying land for an ORV park when so many other issues exist.
     
  10. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    I definitely hear ya on the million acre forest. I got the same questions for you as I do Arron. Do you think what they did to my friend with the 900 acres was right? How about dredge land. It is a man made toxic dump, by letting us be able to go there it could seriously cutback the amount of trucks specifically going out to the pines to go "wheeling". Thanks for explaining the relocation process, it was an idea that I had that obviously wouldn't work to well.
    As far as the state funding goes, yeah I agree to that they should stick to their word.However I'm not to concerned with it, I'm more concerned about us leasing a piece of land outside of the Pine Barrens and then getting shut down. I understand this state is hurting financially along with the rest of the country.
     
  11. dragoncjo

    dragoncjo Piney

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    Dave, here is the deal, I don't really know the whole story with your friend. Was the land preserved? Which means he was paid for the land, right? If he has 900 acres and the state bought it I'm sure he got paid ok?
     
  12. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    The land was once considered buildable, being right by a new GSP exit made it highly desirable. then he got a notice in the mail that his land was then deemed "preserev". He was not paid for anything, and he still can't find out what kind of "preserve" he has, or what he can do with it. Pinelands is ignoring him whenever he trys to contact them, unless its for fines.
     
  13. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    Oh, and by the way, in no way am I trying to get under anyones skin, I'm just trying to find out how to do something proper.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Explorer

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    I think your buddy got shafted, he should be able to sell the land to the state at fair market value. I dont know if the state would do that or not. I know that alot of states have alot more diversity for the people that live there regarding outdoor activities. And i believe that a person should have the right to do anything they want on there land ( with in reason) with out the govt getting involved, if there are endangered species in the area then all bets are off.

    And that toxic dump you guys go 4x4ing in sounds interesting, when your done mudding and go home and wash your truck is all that toxic mud being introduced into our water system?
     
  15. dragoncjo

    dragoncjo Piney

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    Not really sure what to make about that. Getting a letter saying something about 'preserved land' sounds odd at best. If your buddies land was preserved he would know about it, a land preservation organization would have had to pay him if he owned it, or buy it from him. Sounds like there is more to this story in all due respect.
     
  16. dragoncjo

    dragoncjo Piney

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    Mudboy, maybe the letter was something about his property being rezoned?? If it lies in atlantic county and is 900+ acres along the gsp then this would be highly coveted land by land conservation organizations I would think. They are trying to preserve the Elwood Corridor. I'm sure a land conservation organization would be interesting in purchasing it to preserve. I doubt the land is valueless.
     
  17. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    it already is anyways, where do you think the runoff goes? as i said there will be someone to cry no matter what. now if a hunter or fisherman, birdwatcher or environmentalist goes back there and washes his truck when they get home i guess theyre fine?
     
  18. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    If i go in the pines, i'm ruining habitats, if we go to a gravels pit with clay mud holes were ruining habitats, if we go to a waste land were ruining the water systems. how about the vehicle you use everyday that puts out emmisions, how about the heat in your house, or the electric, or your lawnmower, or the lead from your guns? if we want to all play that game the human race would just be better off disapearing? sure seems to be the road youre heading down. oh a god forbid if anyone uses a boat. I guess maybe they dont do any damage?
     
  19. mudboy dave

    mudboy dave Explorer

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    seen the letter about 4 years ago, cannot remember word for word what it said. it is apparently still in the works (after 4 years) and he's not allowed to do anything with the land.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Explorer

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    If you cant see the difference between a vehicle commuting to work and a vehicle destroying wetlands 4x4ing then there really is no use trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.

    What you dont seem to get ( even though your posting on a PINE BARRENS website) is the impact 4x4 have on the pines. As i said before i have no problem with people buying there own property and destroying it. If thats how you get satisfaction in your spare time who am I to judge? And for the gun thing since you keep coming back to that, my gun use is strictly work related, even if im shooting on my off time its to keep my abilities up for work nothing more.