Thoughts on ATV use in New Jersey.

[mudboy dave]

If you cant see the difference between a vehicle commuting to work and a vehicle destroying wetlands 4x4ing then there really is no use trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.

What you dont seem to get ( even though your posting on a PINE BARRENS website) is the impact 4x4 have on the pines. As i said before i have no problem with people buying there own property and destroying it. If thats how you get satisfaction in your spare time who am I to judge? And for the gun thing since you keep coming back to that, my gun use is strictly work related, even if im shooting on my off time its to keep my abilities up for work nothing more.

Yes, I can see the difference, where I'm getting at, is where does it stop. I highly realize I'm on a PINE BARRENS website. i have been raised in the pine barrens and lived there for 27 years. I have also mentioned numerous times that I don't think there should be destructive 4x4 use in the pines, thats why i want to see something happen outside of the pines. I'm happy you see no problem with people buying their own property and destroying it.At least I know you wouldn't be one of the ones against it if this were to happen. I would love to see us unite and get that toxic dump of a spot and have mandatory wash-off spots before going home. I'm also happy to hear that you are more than likely in law enforcement, I highly appreciate the job that you do if I'm correct. However if you don't include going to the shooting range as a hobby, I take my words back. I'm simply stating that if we get a spot off of pinelands protected area, it would suck most of the people off of the pines and alot of destruction would halt. Believe me I love the pines, I spend about 20 hours of every week off the paved road and in the pines. The last thing I like to see is a set of ruts across a swamp, or be cruising along and hit a spot where some moron decided to do donuts with his mud tires.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, I can see the difference, where I'm getting at, is where does it stop. I highly realize I'm on a PINE BARRENS website. i have been raised in the pine barrens and lived there for 27 years. I have also mentioned numerous times that I don't think there should be destructive 4x4 use in the pines, thats why i want to see something happen outside of the pines. I'm happy you see no problem with people buying their own property and destroying it.At least I know you wouldn't be one of the ones against it if this were to happen. I would love to see us unite and get that toxic dump of a spot and have mandatory wash-off spots before going home. I'm also happy to hear that you are more than likely in law enforcement, I highly appreciate the job that you do if I'm correct. However if you don't include going to the shooting range as a hobby, I take my words back. I'm simply stating that if we get a spot off of pinelands protected area, it would suck most of the people off of the pines and alot of destruction would halt. Believe me I love the pines, I spend about 20 hours of every week off the paved road and in the pines. The last thing I like to see is a set of ruts across a swamp, or be cruising along and hit a spot where some moron decided to do donuts with his mud tires.

Sounds like we are more on the same page than off.

I would love to see a privately run ORV park in NJ, somewhere that people could go safely and enjoy themselves. Getting the state to approve of anything will be an uphill battle at best. I wouldnt want to have to sit around and wait for the state to do anything.

 

[mudboy dave]

I hear ya on that. In order to get the state to approve of such a thing approved, we need people such as those off of this site who are aware of the damage going on in the pines to help support when the time comes.

 

[Ben Ruset]

At the end of the day, complaining on this website isn't going to help do anything. Complain to the DEP, complain to your state senator. If people started lobbying Washington or Trenton then perhaps you'd see some of the changes you want.

Until then, this is just some website that a guy (me) runs that has no connections or affiliations with anybody who would have anything to say about the issue.

 

[woodjin]

edit

 

[LARGO]

At the end of the day, complaining on this website isn't going to help do anything. Complain to the DEP, complain to your state senator. If people started lobbying Washington or Trenton then perhaps you'd see some of the changes you want.
Until then, this is just some website that a guy (me) runs that has no connections or affiliations with anybody who would have anything to say about the issue.

But Ben,
You've given us all us place to play. Think of all the children you've done so much good for! If you wanted one single way for this to be an income, give all the rest away free as usual but just incorporate a "venting" charge.
You and Bill Gates will be chums in no time. If you sit back and watch this all with a straight face, bless you.
Thanks for everything man.


g.

 

[mudboy dave]

At the end of the day, complaining on this website isn't going to help do anything. Complain to the DEP, complain to your state senator. If people started lobbying Washington or Trenton then perhaps you'd see some of the changes you want.

Until then, this is just some website that a guy (me) runs that has no connections or affiliations with anybody who would have anything to say about the issue.

you are absolutely correct, however its the people like yall that are viewed in some eyes as environmentalists, you are the ones that will make a difference if a poll goes up on having an offsite privately ran orv park.

 

[Ben Ruset]

you are absolutely correct, however its the people like yall that are viewed in some eyes as environmentalists, you are the ones that will make a difference if a poll goes up on having an offsite privately ran orv park.

hah, dude the environmentalists HATE me because of my very pro ORV stance. go back and re-read some of the old threads, especially the one where Russ Juleig and I were debating the PPA's stance on ORV's.

i have a tremendous respect for the environment, and ORV damage in the Pines infuriates me to no end, but I am a strong proponent that there needs to be legal places for people to ride, if only to keep most people out of sensitive areas where they shouldn't be.

 

[BIGGMIKE101]

Thats alot of text!!!
It is however unfortunate that you as a tax payer dont get to pick and choose where your money goes, im sure the elderly arent thrilled paying our school taxes but they have to.

Bottom line is there will never be an agreement that both sides find satisfactory on this issue. I guess if you wanted to stick it to the man you could always go and buy a enduro and ride where u want, but i doubt you or I or our children will see ATV's in the pines. I am no big fan of state or federal govt interfering in the lives of the people, but atleast this time the state is right in keeping atvs outa the state parks/pine barrens.

Maybe if the ATV users acted as if they had some concern for the local lands and half a brain and didnt tear up the wetlands and stuff you guys would have a case, but as it is you guys are your own worse enemy. To the small percentage that ride illegally and destroy the pines keep it up, your helping us keep ATV's outa the woods.

do you mean those jeeps on you tube its ok what they do in the pines . and do you know the diffrence between enuro and a atv? not! THEY BOTH TARE UP THE GROUND . JUST LIKE THOSE 4X4 MONSTER TRUCKS.HOW ABOUT THOSE BULL DOZERS THE STATE USES FOR FIRE CUTS . I GUESS THATS FINE RIGHT! IF ATV GOT TO RIDE JUST THOSE FIRE CUTS ALONE I THINK SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPEY .OR DOES SOME DAM FROG LIVE THERE TO.

 

[Aaron]

do you mean those jeeps on you tube its ok what they do in the pines . and do you know the diffrence between enuro and a atv? not! THEY BOTH TARE UP THE GROUND . JUST LIKE THOSE 4X4 MONSTER TRUCKS.HOW ABOUT THOSE BULL DOZERS THE STATE USES FOR FIRE CUTS . I GUESS THATS FINE RIGHT! IF ATV GOT TO RIDE JUST THOSE FIRE CUTS ALONE I THINK SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPEY .OR DOES SOME DAM FROG LIVE THERE TO.

I dont know what your asking me, between the caps and the 3rd grade spelling mistakes its hard to take anything you say seriously. You may do better to just smash your face on the keyboard and hit enter next time.

I am praying that english is your second or third language.

But no if an enuro ( enduro) where to TARE(tear) up the pines i wouldnt like that either. I dont know where the dam (damn) frogs live, sorry. Hopefully they dont have a written test to ride a atv( all terrain vehichle, ie quads, trikes and motor cross bikes).

 

[ZZ3GMC]

I dont know what your asking me, between the caps and the 3rd grade spelling mistakes its hard to take anything you say seriously. You may do better to just smash your face on the keyboard and hit enter next time.

I am praying that english is your second or third language.

But no if an enuro ( enduro) where to TARE(tear) up the pines i wouldnt like that either. I dont know where the dam (damn) frogs live, sorry. Hopefully they dont have a written test to ride a atv( all terrain vehichle, ie quads, trikes and motor cross bikes).

But no,
were to tear
up the pines, I wouldnt like that either.
an atv Maybe your right on this one.
vehicle
motocross bikes

Not siding with anyone, just making a few corrections.

 

[mudboy dave]

hah, dude the environmentalists HATE me because of my very pro ORV stance. go back and re-read some of the old threads, especially the one where Russ Juleig and I were debating the PPA's stance on ORV's.

i have a tremendous respect for the environment, and ORV damage in the Pines infuriates me to no end, but I am a strong proponent that there needs to be legal places for people to ride, if only to keep most people out of sensitive areas where they shouldn't be.

Is russ the one who tells the Jersey Devil camp stories? I'll do a search later. However without doing a search on old threads, I dont understand how anyone could not want a ORV park outside of the Pinelands barriers. It would be like a magnet that sucks alot of the guys outside of the pines. What it really comes down to is that until there is a place to go the damage to the pines is going to keep happening. I got some small private places I go but alot of people are not allowed to them due to they are small. Also the private places are more based towards 44" and taller tires not the little guy on 38s.

 

[mudboy dave]

do you mean those jeeps on you tube its ok what they do in the pines . and do you know the diffrence between enuro and a atv? not! THEY BOTH TARE UP THE GROUND . JUST LIKE THOSE 4X4 MONSTER TRUCKS.HOW ABOUT THOSE BULL DOZERS THE STATE USES FOR FIRE CUTS . I GUESS THATS FINE RIGHT! IF ATV GOT TO RIDE JUST THOSE FIRE CUTS ALONE I THINK SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPEY .OR DOES SOME DAM FROG LIVE THERE TO.

I can't say, since there is no link, that what they are doing is legal or not legal.. The enduro thing sorta gets to me as well. The way the state looks at it is that they can be driven on the road therefore they are legal. an atv cannot. Its that most of teh enduro riders are more respectful than a guy on his new 450r who is going 60 down the trail and throwing dirt and stoones 50 ft behind him. i know as a fact , just as any atv rider knows, that I could ride a quad through the woods and do minimal damage. The true question is who would be willing to follow the 20 mph rule? Who would be willing to stay on the designated trail? I personally think they go a little crazy with the bulldozers. As far as I understand they are only supposed to make cuts in between trees and only take out the underbrush. From what I have viwed that def is not the case. I have also seen people complain about the forest fire service on this site. Bottom line is that even if you could convince this whole site that ATV's should be allowed in the state forest, you would still have to convince the PPA and the state that it should be allowed. you have a better chance of crack being legal for 5 year olds to smoke than that. So instead of fighting a 100% loss of a battle. Fight for something realistic, a park outside of pinelands.

 

[dragoncjo]

You will find that many of the people that have power in this state concerning environmental issues don't partake in forums like this. As Ben stated sites like this and others have no pull at all when it comes to issues like we are discussing. If you want to get action done you really have to get in contact with the people who have power. I had the same issue with reptiles and amphibians, illegal collecting of them, habitat destruction, lack of habitat, etc. and got fed up with ranting on sites like this, so I went and contacted a land conservation organization and it worked out well for me....you got keep plugging away though.....good luck its much tougher when what your campaigning for is viewed as destructive.

 

[dragoncjo]

I would say a park not in NJ to be honest. The southern reaches of this state are equally fought for as the pine barrens by environmental groups. Lots of crucial areas along the Atlantic Flyway down there, and lots of endangered species.

 

[mudboy dave]

I would say a park not in NJ to be honest. The southern reaches of this state are equally fought for as the pine barrens by environmental groups. Lots of crucial areas along the Atlantic Flyway down there, and lots of endangered species.

I just wish those would understand that if something doesn't happen it's only gonna get worse. I know how this sorta thing works. Lets say the park police crack down on a spot of the pinelands that sees frequent ORV use, all the people are going to migrate elsewheres. This isn't anything new. The fines can keep increasing and what you'll get is 10 people out of 50 that will sell their trucks, within a year 20 more people have built new trucks that end up going out. Its a never ending cycle. Where I'm heading with this, is that hopefully someone in the higher ups will realize this and will compromise a piece of land to leave us alone on, when it would be us, the 4X4 enthusiasts paying for the lease, insurance and upkeep. The numbers I'm using are simply suggestive and are based on no stats. I myself no longer go mudding in the pines, I stay on trails that are on topography maps and that is it. I use my mud truck on private land, but that does not help to stop the guy who doesn't use his truck on private land and decides a swamp would make a nice mud run. I'm also not ranting on here but would rather have you guys understand what I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to do is not going to eliminate every non law abiding citizen from taking their truck out into the swamps, however it will make a huge fine and confiscation of a $20,000 mud truck less appealing.

 

[TheBronzeMan]

Trailhead, you asked for some comments. I'm not going to crawl in a hole, I'll give you my opinion. Your comments are all sound, and you obviously put some real thought into them. They all seem to be okay at first glance.

State Forests though, were procured for more passive recreation; camping, hiking, wildlife viewing, etc. The less intrusive type of recreation promoted in and around the natural state of nature if you will.

Bob, this is not true... If you talk to any professional forester they will be the first to point out that the use of New Jerseys public land was intended so that the average JOE had access to public land to recreate.

This is also off of the Bass River state forest website:

Bass River State Forest was the first forest acquired by the state of New Jersey in 1905 for public recreation, water conservation, and wildlife and timber management. Lake Absegami, a 67-acre lake created in the 1930's, is the center of the forest's recreational activities and provides an area for swimming and a serene setting for boating and canoeing. A trail through the Absegami Natural Area wanders through a pine/oak woods and a small Atlantic white cedar bog

Note that this quote makes no mention to nature conservation... but it mentions wildlife and timber management... (back in 1905 that meant hunting and timber harvesting)... also note the only conservation mentioned is water conservation

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/parks/bass.html

Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) 75th Anniversary
The Civilian Conservation Corps was created during President Franklin D. Roosevelt's "The Hundred Days," the beginning of FDR's first term, and a time of massive legislative efforts to deal with the paralyzing effects of the Great Depression. The CCC put needy young men to work and sent a large portion of their pay back to their families. The fact that only 37 days elapsed between FDR's swearing in and the induction of the first CCC enrollee on April 7, 1933 reflects the importance of this program. By the time the program ended in 1942, due to World War II, over three million unemployed young men had been enrolled, planting over three billion trees and completing many other conservation projects including building much of the infrastructure at Bass River State Forest.

The CCC camp at Bass River State Forest, Camp S-55, lasted from 1933 to 1942, throughout the entire life of CCC. Company 225 served at the camp from 1933-1937 and Company 2201-V, a Veteran’s company, followed from 1937-1942. There were usually 200 men at the camp, which was a full complement. The CCC members performed wide range of conservation work. The young men of the CCC built park roads, trails, bridle paths, bridges for vehicles, ponds for fish and waterfowl, lookout towers, nature observatory shelters, picnic areas, cabins, fireplaces, campgrounds, recreational lakes, and landscaping. The most noteworthy feat was the creation of the 67-acre Lake Absegami, by damming two streams flowing through the forest. The foundations of Camp S-55 and the CCC Memorial are part of a self-guided trail. Brochures are available at the Forest Office and at the beginning of the trail near the parking lot on East Greenbush Road. Stop in at the Forest Office to see artifacts from our Camp as well as a list of members from our Camp.

This is also from that same state forest website. Again all CCC activities were very HIGH IMPACT like damming of wetlands and streams so to transform them into lakes or building of roads and trails over streams and swamps. If any of these initiatives were attempted today they would be met with total opposition from those that advocate closing the forest all together and allowing it to evolve back to total wilderness like the Parker Preserve.

Bob, The point is the original purpose of the state forest directive was for recreation, hunting and timber harvesting... society and our choices as far as recreational activities go has also changed over time and the state has a responsibility to provide for those choices now and in the future.

It's just a shame that a few in our community have chosen to hijack the original mission of the state forest initiative for their sole purpose of what they deem appropriate.

There is also an original state forest mission document which is on paper and for some odd reason was never transfered to an electronic document... It's also kind of funny how in this electronic age history can be censored so easily.

And no I'm not an ATV or 4x4 advocate... just someone that believes that all members of our society should be treated equally and fairly whatever their interest may be.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Well, the thing is that ORV use is inherently destructive. Passive recreation (hiking, kayaking, etc.) is not.

So you can make the argument that the ORV folks should not be able to destroy the environment because they'll be taking recreational options away from other groups.

Which is the whole reason why there should be designated parks for people to ride, and ORV's should not be used anywhere but the parks.

 

[misclaims]

I agree. In as much as Im kinda of a tree hugger, I do know that most people who enjoy ORVs also have a vested interest in preserving open space. Since that is the common denominator that binds, a compromise should be reached that benefits all of us who enjoy the outdoors and would rather see it preserved than plowed over. Having designated areas to ride would be much more adventageous to the environment as a whole then clearing out hundreds of acres for shopping centers, houses etc. The bulk of area would remain untouched with only the trail areas being affected.

 

[bigdog]

I know this might be a long shot...…….how about Earle Naval Base open up some lands for ATV riding. There are thousands of acres not being utilized by anybody. I'm not sure how to go about this but I think that could be an answer to the problem