ORV Management In Sensitive Areas Of Wharton

[popeofthepines]

The bridge behind the Pleasant Mills Methodist Church is owned by the County. The County doesn't want to repair it and is willing to give it to the State, but the State will not take it unless it is fixed.

How frustrating is that? And I am sure there is a grant to assist one of them in fixing this bridge. Hopefully the FFS will not need access to the road from that end in the near future. I would think that giving the FFS the easiest and safest access would be a priority.

 

[popeofthepines]

The DEP claims that the MAP will be subject to change and that CERTAIN roads MAY be reopened IF the maintenance crews can fix them. There's no action plan for that happening, though

So the converse would be that they can close roads that are open currently under the MAP due to maintenance concerns? I do understand that there is nothing in place for the roads to be reopened once maintenance is completed or that the maintenance is not even scheduled yet, but I feel that they may arbitrarily decide to close a road and we would not find out unless we purchased another MAP with updated road information. To me it feels like a cycle that benefits the DEP and Rob mostly and it is all boils down to $$. Oh you are out of bounds because you should have purchased another MAP blah blah

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

Roads with a right of way are to stay open.
Don't know for sure, but East Stokes road probably has a right of way, maybe 3 or 4 chains. If you go to the original roads returns in the clerk's office you will find many more roads with R.O.W.s, some not used much anymore.

So I have a question on the right of way situation, hopefully someone can steer me straight,
The definition of right of way is the legal right, established by usage or grant, to pass along a specific route through grounds or property belonging to another. So, by usage could one protest that all the roads there have a right of way? I mean we have all established usage of them and up until a few weeks ago were granted permission to use them by the state. In conjunction we all pay taxes, so the property in question belongs to all of us. So the “land manager” is granting and taking away from us us the right to drive on our own roads? I’m confused here, I'm sure there is a ton of legal BS involved, but it seems simple to me.

 

[46er]

So I have a question on the right of way situation, hopefully someone can steer me straight,
The definition of right of way is the legal right, established by usage or grant, to pass along a specific route through grounds or property belonging to another. So, by usage could one protest that all the roads there have a right of way? I mean we have all established usage of them and up until a few weeks ago were granted permission to use them by the state. In conjunction we all pay taxes, so the property in question belongs to all of us. So the “land manager” is granting and taking away from us us the right to drive on our own roads? I’m confused here, I'm sure there is a ton of legal BS involved, but it seems simple to me.

Not to add confusion, but this is very similar to the term 'navigable' that is used to determine if water in a stream or river that passes thru private property can be used by the public. The issue I have seen that occurs most is in upstate NY with canoeists traveling on rivers that pass thru private property, and that battle has been going thru the courts up there for decades and continues to this day.

 

[Broke Jeep Joe]

Not to add confusion, but this is very similar to the term 'navigable' that is used to determine if water in a stream or river that passes thru private property can be used by the public. The issue I have seen that occurs most is in upstate NY with canoeists traveling on rivers that pass thru private property, and that battle has been going thru the courts up there for decades and continues to this day.

That makes about a grain of sand more sense than this, at least it is private property, but its still asinine! I guess that compares to Haines' property, the roads pass through but the surrounding forest is private

 

[Boyd]

There is a "historic preservation zone" that runs down the length of the Mullica and Batsto rivers. This was news to me.

Maybe that is the "double secret preservation" zone? There is a little-known codasyl to the NJDEP regulations which gives the superintendent unlimited power to close roads in times of forest emergencies.

But seriously, NJDEP has a shapefile that shows historic districts here: http://www.state.nj.us/dep/gis/stateshp.html#HISTDIST

Here's a quick mash-up of districts overlaid on public openspace. I don't see anything like that.

But maybe he meant the Batsto Natural Area? That has been marked on the Wharton maps for a long time. It is shown on the 2003 map on page 6 the FAQ you linked to before: http://www.nj.gov/dep/parksandforests/parks/docs/wsf_motorzed_access_plan_FAQ.pdf

 

[smoke_jumper]

Maybe that is the "double secret preservation" zone? There is a little-known codasyl to the NJDEP regulations which gives the superintendent unlimited power to close roads in times of forest emergencies.

But seriously, NJDEP has a shapefile that shows historic districts here: http://www.state.nj.us/dep/gis/stateshp.html#HISTDIST

Here's a quick mash-up of districts overlaid on public openspace. I don't see anything like that.

View attachment 6049

But maybe he meant the Batsto Natural Area? That has been marked on the Wharton maps for a long time. It is shown on the 2003 map on page 6 the FAQ you linked to before: http://www.nj.gov/dep/parksandforests/parks/docs/wsf_motorzed_access_plan_FAQ.pdf

View attachment 6050

At quick glance I can name four roads on that map that are now closed.

 

[46er]

That makes about a grain of sand more sense than this, at least it is private property, but its still asinine! I guess that compares to Haines' property, the roads pass through but the surrounding forest is private

Not really, and not to divert from this thread, but the water doesn't stand still, it flows from one end of property to the other and the canoe floats upon it, does not touch the land beneath the water. If anything is at fault, it's the water

 

[Teegate]

But maybe he meant the Batsto Natural Area?

I was there with Ben also. That was a load of crap from him. He made up things to suit his needs. He even has gone into the FFS records and found a date from 1933 when a plow line was cut to fight a fire and decided that was a reason to close that road. He even told me that he feels he has walked more roads than me. The thing he does not realize is I use roads to get to the start of where I want to go. As Jerseyman once said so eloquently on this site "You show me yours and I will show you mine."

I wasted almost 7 hours of my day going there. All he wanted was to get Ben to link to the pdf and to get us to pick roads we may want open. After he said that I cautioned the others not to do it and I am proud to say he got nothing. And I was the one who got heated and I have no regrets. I warned Ben that would happen and he had to be the one to stop me which he did. But in the end he did not care one bit about anything I said. He is in his own world and it is a world that I want no part of.

 

[Ben Ruset]

In my opinion all things that look like a road and are wide enough to fit an average sized vehicle (not counting the occasional tight branch, because who hasn't had piney pin striping before) should be open unless:

• It was a road cut through the forest by the FFS within the last 10 years
• It traverses wetlands
• There is enough ORV damage to make the road impassible.

All of the existing roads and trails ought to be grandfathered in. For all intents and purposes the state gave its permission for you to be there by not closing and/or enforcing the road closures over the years.

 

[Don Catts]

I was there with Ben also. That was a load of crap from him. He made up things to suit his needs. He even has gone into the FFS records and found a date from 1933 when a plow line was cut to fight a fire and decided that was a reason to close that road. He even told me that he feels he has walked more roads than me. The thing he does not realize is I use roads to get to the start of where I want to go. As Jerseyman once said so eloquently on this site "You show me yours and I will show you mine."

I wasted almost 7 hours of my day going there. All he wanted was to get Ben to link to the pdf and to get us to pick roads we may want open. After he said that I cautioned the others not to do it and I am proud to say he got nothing.And I was the one who got heated and I have no regrets. I warned Ben that would happen and he had to be the one to stop me which he did. But in the end he did not care one bit about anything I said. He is in his own world and it is a world that I want no part of.

Guy, if he walked from now until he retired he would not come close to your mileage. He sure picked the wrong person to say that too. From what I can see you and Jessica must hold the Guinness record for walking in the pine barrens, BY FAR.
Don

 

[enormiss]

In regards to the petition

This one takes your address and figures out what representatives to mail based on that data.

Is there any way to find out who/what representatives this went out to?
I have not gotten anything back from anyone like petitions I do for the AMA.
Have you received any responses from representativs?
Tried Googling to see how it works but found nothing other than how moveon itself will get behind petitions.
Thanks for all your effort on this...

 

[smoke_jumper]

I agree Ben. The problem I see is the difference in opinion. I might see a road crossing a low area others see it as wet lands. I would like to know what the management plan is. Is there a budget in place to maintain these roads. If there is not then it is destined to fail and the blame will be pushed back on the motor vehicles. How much was spent on road maintanance in past years? After this grant how much is budgeted each year? If this is the plan to "fix" the pines I need to see something beyond the end of September. What's the 5 year plan the 10 year plan and so forth. I know the plan will need to be adjusted over time but you have to start somewhere. Just closing roads and simply saying its to make things better makes no sense to me.

 

[enormiss]

Feel free to share this info and graphic with whomever you see fit. If you run into any doubters along the way,

This is awsome, wish i could make it a lawn poster
Thanks

 

[smoke_jumper]

Guy, if he walked from now until he retired he would not come close to your mileage. He sure picked the wrong person to say that too. From what I can see you and Jessica must hold the Guinness record for walking in the pine barrens, BY FAR.
Don

I think they WALKED the pines more then he DROVE them

 

[smoke_jumper]

How frustrating is that? And I am sure there is a grant to assist one of them in fixing this bridge. Hopefully the FFS will not need access to the road from that end in the near future. I would think that giving the FFS the easiest and safest access would be a priority.

That area burnt around 1999 and made several fast runs. At the time the bridge was still open. I couldn't imagine trying to make a stop without that bridge. (Also there was a several mile push road created to stop its progress) Sending crews in with them only having one way out is a very bad scenario especially if that means having to double back that far. That would be a major concern for me. Keeping the FFS as safe as possible so they can protect the public seems like it should be a priority (We're not talking about a truck just getting stuck) Making sure nobody drives on Park Ave between Carranza and Tuckerton seems very minimal to me.

 

[SuperChooch]

Another day, another resolution! Tonight Medford passed a resolution in opposition!

 

[smoke_jumper]

Another day, another resolution! Tonight Medford passed a resolution in opposition!

I was worried about that one.

 

[SuperChooch]

I was there with Ben also. That was a load of crap from him. He made up things to suit his needs. He even has gone into the FFS records and found a date from 1933 when a plow line was cut to fight a fire and decided that was a reason to close that road. He even told me that he feels he has walked more roads than me. The thing he does not realize is I use roads to get to the start of where I want to go. As Jerseyman once said so eloquently on this site "You show me yours and I will show you mine."

I wasted almost 7 hours of my day going there. All he wanted was to get Ben to link to the pdf and to get us to pick roads we may want open. After he said that I cautioned the others not to do it and I am proud to say he got nothing. And I was the one who got heated and I have no regrets. I warned Ben that would happen and he had to be the one to stop me which he did. But in the end he did not care one bit about anything I said. He is in his own world and it is a world that I want no part of.

If nothing else this confirms that there is no compromising with him. That just confirms that we need to apply relentless pressure to his management so he is told what he needs to do.

 

[Teegate]

For Fish and Wildlife just to buy property the people of New England got this.

Fish And Wildlife Service Seeks 160,000 Acres In 4 States

The Fish and Wildlife Service has scheduled 13 information meetings about the management plan and four public hearings between Aug. 31 and Nov. 12

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=135621